Vegan-ism Vs Vegetarianism

[Pittsey]

My diet is mixed, I eat fresh fruit and veg every day, normally some kinda cheese sub for my lunch. I eat meat normally at most once a day, and i switch what kinda meat; one day lamb, another pork, another salmon etc. I do eat the occasional junk food, but I do have a high intake of energy drinks (1 can of monster every day) and cola. Other than being ill through stress or a virus, im extremely healthy. I had to have blood tests recently when i contracted a virus, they all come back with above average results in my favor. Not bad for some one whose abused their body with drugs and alcohol, which is why im sure a mixed moderated diet is why im in good health.

My diet includes fruit and veg, and fish which i included as meat. But i have a meat product wth every meal. And it seems dairy is in everything.

Apart from having a condition that i have lived with for 20 years, which usually is in remission, and which actually has been linked to dairy, i am never ill. Haven't had a day off work for 5 years.

But i am always looking at healthier ways to live.



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[Casey]

I'm absolutely not malnourished and neither do I look bloated, come on now. Show me exactly where I look bloated. This picture is two months old and I look pretty fucking healthy if I do say so myself. Gotti I don't know what kinda weird ass vegans you might have met but I have never met a single vegan who looks anywhere near to a "terminal cancer patient" or "heroin addict", that sounds ridiculously over the top.

Bryan Adams, Alanis Morrissette, Capleton, Morrissey, Johnny Marr, Andre 3000, Erykah Badu, Casey Affleck, Anthony Kiedis, Mike Tyson, Tobey Maguire, Lea Michele from Glee, Brad Pitt, Russell Simmons, Alicia Silverstone, Dead Prez and Saul Williams are all vegan and all look pretty damn healthy to me also.

As both Joker and I said, you gotta do it the right way. Maybe you did some meet some vegans who look malnourished but chances are they simply weren't doing it properly. It's misleading and unfair to try and use that as some kind of "point" against veganism. It'd be like me saying all the meat eaters I know are morbidly obese and are so fat they can't get out of bed.

 

[Jokerman]

So basically what you are saying is that the real "healthy" people look identical to those with terminal illnesses?

Basically, yes. I myself look like I'm in the throes of leukemia. Old ladies often offer to help me across the street. But, no, not like terminal patients, but leaner than average. Especially if they're restricting calories too. But like I said, some are not doing it right, were anorexic to begin with, or changed diet because of an illness. So they might look ill. But I don't know anyone who looked healthy before they went veggie and then looked worse after. They got leaner, had more energy, and said they felt better.

By the way, nice pic Casey. Maybe the best I've seen of you. I could never tell you were pretty tall before.

 

[Flipmo]

Holy shit - Casey is wearing a shirt with sleeves.

 

[Jokerman]

Also, what is the reason for not eating eggs?

You mean health-wise, because, obviously, they come from animals and vegans don't eat that? They're high in cholesterol, saturated fat, and might increase your risk of diabetes. Some say we can handle the fat and cholesterol without a problem, but who needs to take a chance? There's healthy substitutes for eggs in recipes.

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Cardiology/Diabetes/11883

 

[masta247]

^
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/06/16/us-eggs-diabetes-idUSTRE65F6PH20100616

"Nevertheless, they conclude, the current investigation doesn't back any significant relationship between egg consumption and type 2 diabetes."

 

[Jokerman]

^
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/06/16/us-eggs-diabetes-idUSTRE65F6PH20100616

"Nevertheless, they conclude, the current investigation doesn't back any significant relationship between egg consumption and type 2 diabetes."

Lol. Thank you for posting an example of a biased study. If you read it, you'll see this:

Other studies that have linked eggs to diabetes have found an association with very high consumption, the researchers note, generally for eating seven or more eggs a week (as the study I linked shows). On average, participants in this study ate less than one egg a week, the researchers add, so there may not have been enough people with very high egg intakes to establish whether this was harmful.

Less than 1 egg a week? Why not an egg a month! And an egg a day is not "high" consumption, it's about average, considering all the processed shit that uses eggs. That's the perfect example of how you design a study to make it look like other studies are wrong: don't use the same amounts. This is what they do with Vitamin C all the time. The guy who led this research is a member of the American Heart Association, which is one of the most biased-in-bed-with-the-food-industry as any health organization there is. They recently partnered up with the Beef Board.

http://www.foodpolitics.com/2011/02/american-heart-association-says-i-♥-beef/

How much money is the Beef Board paying the AHA to use its CheckMark logo? I hope it’s a lot more than what the AHA gets (or used to get) for putting its check mark on sugary cereals. This was $4,500 per product in 2007.

And guess what? The AHA is also getting money from the poultry industry to get their seal of approval. Poultry/Eggs. The AHA designed this egg study to ensure it wouldn't show a significant correlation. And if an egg a day has been shown to increase the risk of Type 2 by 58% in men and 77% in women, then you can be sure that 4 eggs a week would show an increase too. In the AHA study an egg a day is a "very high consumption," like you have to be competing in the Guiness Book of World Records for most egg consumption to get those amounts. Yeah, right, McDonald's Big Mac sauce even has fucking eggs in it. An egg a day on the contrary is very low consumption for most people. So, if you eat two eggs over easy or scrambled or Egg McMuffin for breakfast 5 days a week, as some do (who eats 1 egg at a time?), what will you have, like a 98% increased chance? Fuck the AHA with their sugar and meat and dairy endorsed studies. If they did cigarette and cancer studies, they'd use less than a puff a week.

Also, the "bible" is a book of fantasy nonsense and bullshit that contradicts itself every 5 pages, written by acid-tripping fiction writers.

 

[masta247]

I saw the "one egg a week" and was curious about the research. I found it very weird too. It seems to be way less than average. Just eat pancakes or something and you'd have more, that's true. The reason why I posted this because it was quoted with a real deal title in Reuters.
However despite this being kind of "biased" that also proves that a balanced diet is the key. An egg from time to time gives you more advantages than threats. Eat too much and it won't be good for you. Just like with most things. The "too much" amount varies between different types of food and the key is to know how much is too much.

 

[Casey]

I saw the "one egg a week" and was curious about the research. I found it very weird too. It seems to be way less than average. Just eat pancakes or something and you'd have more, that's true. The reason why I posted this because it was quoted with a real deal title in Reuters.
However despite this being kind of "biased" that also proves that a balanced diet is the key. An egg from time to time gives you more advantages than threats. Eat too much and it won't be good for you. Just like with most things. The "too much" amount varies between different types of food and the key is to know how much is too much.

I don't think anyone disputes that but it's largely irrelevant because I don't believe those people that go on and on about "moderation" really exist. Like Joker says, with the amount of products that contain egg it's pretty much impossible that non-vegans would eat just one egg a week. I don't think there's anyone out there that eats a bacon sandwich and then goes "hey, that's my meat limit sorted for the next 5 days". If you cared that much you just wouldn't eat it at all.

 

[ARon]

I believe there are a lot more people concerned about portion control than you think. I eat out a lot, at least twice a day. Not mcdonalds and stuff but yeah. I always see people asking for a certain amount of ounces of an ingredient, and most of the time it's meat. Maybe it's because I'm in hippie central but regardless people care.

 

[Casey]

I believe there are a lot more people concerned about portion control than you think. I eat out a lot, at least twice a day. Not mcdonalds and stuff but yeah. I always see people asking for a certain amount of ounces of an ingredient, and most of the time it's meat. Maybe it's because I'm in hippie central but regardless people care.

I can believe that on a meal-by-meal basis or even a daily basis, but I don't believe there's a significant amount of people that do track that on more than a weekly basis at the most.

And as Joker pointed out, the amount of restriction required to negate all the health concerns is far lower than most people think. More than likely most of those people you see are purely basing it on calorie content to maintain a specific physique and nothing more than that. If you don't specifically know how much is too much, then those people obviously aren't going to perceive it on any other level, are they?

 

[Pittsey]

You mean health-wise, because, obviously, they come from animals and vegans don't eat that? They're high in cholesterol, saturated fat, and might increase your risk of diabetes. Some say we can handle the fat and cholesterol without a problem, but who needs to take a chance? There's healthy substitutes for eggs in recipes.

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Cardiology/Diabetes/11883

I also wondered on the moral issues. A chicken lays almost daily regardless. If the egg isn't fertilised it is wasted.


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[Prize Gotti]

I'm absolutely not malnourished and neither do I look bloated, come on now. Show me exactly where I look bloated. This picture is two months old and I look pretty fucking healthy if I do say so myself. Gotti I don't know what kinda weird ass vegans you might have met but I have never met a single vegan who looks anywhere near to a "terminal cancer patient" or "heroin addict", that sounds ridiculously over the top.

Bryan Adams, Alanis Morrissette, Capleton, Morrissey, Johnny Marr, Andre 3000, Erykah Badu, Casey Affleck, Anthony Kiedis, Mike Tyson, Tobey Maguire, Lea Michele from Glee, Brad Pitt, Russell Simmons, Alicia Silverstone, Dead Prez and Saul Williams are all vegan and all look pretty damn healthy to me also.

As both Joker and I said, you gotta do it the right way. Maybe you did some meet some vegans who look malnourished but chances are they simply weren't doing it properly. It's misleading and unfair to try and use that as some kind of "point" against veganism. It'd be like me saying all the meat eaters I know are morbidly obese and are so fat they can't get out of bed.

2006

2011

You can't see the difference?

Some of those people you named were bad examples of look "pretty damn healthy", Andre 3000 and Erykah Badu both suffer from crack addiction. Alanis Morrissette and Alicia Silverstone both currently battling anorexia, and also;

Now > Before

I'm just saying.

One thing I forgot who is a prime example of my Vegan-Vs-Health arguement is my aunt. My aunt was Coach of the British Paraolympics gymnastics team, she raced road cycles professionally and was a kick ass snow boarder.

Since she became vegan, she became over weight as she has no energy to exercise and she is constantly suffering from illnesses as her vegan diet is ruining her immune system. I underlined is as her doctor has concluded that the cause of this is lack of nutrients that are found in meat. She NEVER eats any junk food. Just synthetic meats, fruit and veg and vitamin supplements, which over a long period of time, dont make up for what she is lacking. And whats saddening is she believes the same as you, shes deluded by this belief and she'll die young as a result.

 

[Casey]

Really? You're gonna compare a picture of me from when I was 18 to one where I'm 23? Other than being 5 years older, having a beard and a different hairstyle, no I don't see the difference. SMH. Here's the thing - you can find two drastically different pictures of ANYBODY 5 years apart and use that to try and make any point. It's an invalid comparison.

Alanis Morrissette ain't anorexic, she just had a kid FFS. I've never even heard about her being anorexic since the early 1990's.

And your last point is so laughable due to being hilariously untrue. There is not a SINGLE thing present in meat that you miss on a correct vegan diet. Not one. Ask a properly trained nutritionist. Shit, ask Jokerman since he's even more knowledgeable than I am on the subject.

If you want to bring up personal examples how about this. Since I turned vegan:

I have approximately 3-4x the energy and motivation I used to.
I have longer endurance while exercising.
I have reached by optimum BMI
I get sick (colds, etc) either once a year or not at all. When I was vegetarian it was 2-3 times a year and when I ate meat it was 4-5 times a year.
I'm a vastly decreased long term risk of heart disease, heart attacks, strokes, cancers, and diabetes amongst others.
I have better skin. I used to have dermatological issues that required infrequent trips to the dermatologist. Guess what issues went away since I became vegan.
I require less sleep than I used to - before I could barely function on less than 7 hours. Now I can sleep 5-6 hours and be absolutely fine all day.
My memory/concentration is improved vastly.

Did you know that men in the early stages of prostate cancer were able to REVERSE it through switching to a vegan diet?
Yup.

What you're trying to say is because your aunt, and some random people you met, may not have been able to fulfill a proper vegan diet, that therefore veganism=wrong. That's bullshit. Go read veganforum. Go and look at the ratio of people there who have had problems compared to those whose lives and health have been VASTLY improved. Maybe 1-2% of vegans have problems and most of that is because they've neglected a particular necessity such as B12.

I think this picture makes it pretty clear that I'm looking better/healthier these days than I ever have. But if you want to make some more meaningless comparisons, then by all means compare it to another picture of me from 5+ years ago.

 

[Pittsey]

I have decided to try at least one day a week meat free, and one day dairy free. I don't know if I can kick completely, but feel that even just giving up meat for a day should improve my health.

I'd also say that I am very aware of only putting the best foods inside me. I only eat at good restaurants, buy my meat direct from the farm that rears the animals and grow most of my own veg. I was also looking at keeping a couple of chickens. And I was going to get some bees (although not for the honey, as I don't like it.). I consume a lot of milk, I am researching the negative aspects of this. But I only use cravendale, which from what I have read so far seem to have some higher standards.

MY BMI is good though. And my cholesterol is low. I get checked every 3 years.

 

[stefanwzyga]

I have approximately 3-4x the energy and motivation I used to.
I have longer endurance while exercising.
I have reached by optimum BMI
I get sick (colds, etc) either once a year or not at all. When I was vegetarian it was 2-3 times a year and when I ate meat it was 4-5 times a year.
I'm a vastly decreased long term risk of heart disease, heart attacks, strokes, cancers, and diabetes amongst others.
I have better skin. I used to have dermatological issues that required infrequent trips to the dermatologist. Guess what issues went away since I became vegan.
I require less sleep than I used to - before I could barely function on less than 7 hours. Now I can sleep 5-6 hours and be absolutely fine all day.
My memory/concentration is improved vastly.

IMO most of this is in your head. Like i said before i was a veggie for 7/8 years and felt no different at all.


Your 23 years old, if you ate meat and kept your weight down you would look exactly the way you do regardless if your eating meat or not.

You hardly had any motivation or energy at age 18? Cmon man.

You never get sick or colds? Either do i, it's called good genes.

It's quite easy to function on 5/6 hours sleep, i do a physical job and do it all the time.

 

[Jokerman]

I have decided to try at least one day a week meat free, and one day dairy free.

Just make sure you have paramedics standing by, things could go wrong. No, good, slowly is the way to start. Use almond milk instead of milk. If someone feels they want to keep some dairy in their diet, I say keep cheese, not milk. You grow your own vegetables? Sounds like you have some farmland. Good.

Change is a challenge. It requires a certain amount of dedication and commitment to change, something not everyone is willing to do. But willingness to change is the first and most important step.

 

[Jokerman]

Since she became vegan, she became over weight as she has no energy to exercise and she is constantly suffering from illnesses as her vegan diet is ruining her immune system. I underlined is as her doctor has concluded that the cause of this is lack of nutrients that are found in meat. She NEVER eats any junk food. Just synthetic meats, fruit and veg and vitamin supplements, which over a long period of time, dont make up for what she is lacking.

Some people have malabsorbtion issues, esp if they make the change too fast. I'd need to know what she eats and what might be missing to say more. You didn't mention beans, nuts, and seeds. Some vegans mistakenly go on an almost fat-free diet. Wrong. Very important to get adequate fats. Tell her to add those things if she doesn't and add coconut oil and olive oil, too. But it's not a vegan diet that's responsible for her problem, otherwise every vegan would eventually have the same problem and don't. There's irrefutable scientific evidence that proves the adequacy--indeed, the superiority--of a vegetarian diet.

Lol, I don't know what the point of those Mike Tyson pics were. Before, when he was in training and years after when he let himself go to pot? When was that after pic taken? He's only been vegan a year, and he said he's lost 130 lbs. That pic might be before that. Or if it's recent maybe he was 130 lbs heavier than even that. Then he still has some way to go. But he says he lost weight since changing.

 

[Casey]

IMO most of this is in your head. Like i said before i was a veggie for 7/8 years and felt no different at all.


Your 23 years old, if you ate meat and kept your weight down you would look exactly the way you do regardless if your eating meat or not.

You hardly had any motivation or energy at age 18? Cmon man.

You never get sick or colds? Either do i, it's called good genes.

It's quite easy to function on 5/6 hours sleep, i do a physical job and do it all the time.

It's not in my head. Before I became vegan I looked bigger. And I weighed more. I definitely wasn't at my optimum BMI. I didn't say I had hardly any motivation or energy at 18, I said I have WAY more now, even compared to before I was vegan, less than 2 years ago. Same with sick/colds, I get less now than before I was vegan. And I personally had problems functioning on that amount of sleep before I was vegan and now I don't.

So you can say it's in my head if you want to, but there's been no other major change in my life in terms of diet, exercise, stress levels... etc. And I'm hardly the only person that cites these sort of things as a benefit of veganism.... is it in everyone elses heads too? Jokerman can probably give you a thorough nutritional explanation of why I'm seeing all these benefits. But all of it is correlated and explained in many vegan books - a few of which I own.

 

[vg4030]

I think you look great Casey. I'd still bang ya