Vegan-ism Vs Vegetarianism

Pittsey · May 25, 2011

So...

I see a lot of Vegans on here stating that Vegan-ism is the best way. Casey I am looking at you.

I want to be educated on the subject. I want to know the social and economic impact of meat eaters. I know that it has been said by many a wise man that if were all vegetarians we could eliminate world hunger. Although I don't think that even if we had enough food for the world 10 times over that everyone would get fed, because a capitalist society wouldn't allow it.

But I also want to know why Vegans are more elite shall we say, than vegetarians. Why shouldn't we eat we eat eggs (or Fish for that matter - is that a pescatarian?)

I have always been interested in abstaining from meat. But I fear I am an addict. I also believe that my health would suffer as I have an illness that messes with my absorption of food. But I was prepared to do a few days of Veggieness and see if I felt better or worse. However I think it would be impossible for me to have a Vegan diet and can't see how you Vegans do it.

Basically. Enlighten me.

Maybe we could discuss the picture that Aron posted in the other thread too.

Chronic · May 25, 2011

If you don't eat meat but do eat fish = pescatarian diet.

I'll enlighten you to a nice meal:

Stirfry a plant-based minced meat replacement, add kidney beans, corn and courgette/zucchini. Stiryfry a moment. Add spices. Add tomato pureé. Put doritos (natural flavor) in an oven tray, cover them with the stuff you stirfried. Put in the oven.

Casey · May 26, 2011

Pittsey said:

Full report - http://www.unep.org/resourcepanel/documents/pdf/PriorityProductsAndMaterials_Report_Full.pdf

I have problems with the word "best". It's obviously relative. I believe it's the best way for me as a person who tries to live a compassionate lifestyle and for health reasons as well. It's pretty obvious that your average vegan diet is healthier than your average carnivores diet.

If somebody doesn't give a fuck about their health or does not believe in being compassionate towards other living creatures then clearly they have no motivation for it. But they'll likely die young, fat and hated.

Fish is in the same category as meat, as it's flesh of a living creature. Compassion for the living creature and understanding of the large amounts of mercury and toxins in fish is why I stopped eating it along with meat when I became a vegetarian years ago.

Switching to veganism for me was abstaining from animal by-products - particularly with regards to diet. So, dairy products, honey, gelatin, etc. Dairy is the main one though given it's huge levels of consumptions. Try and make a mental note next time you go to your local supermarket of what products contain dairy. Most of them should be fairly obvious, but every time you're not sure, give the ingredients list a quick look. You'll probably be surprised at a few things that contain dairy for no apparent reason. Well, the reason is it's a cheap solution to increase the weight, thickness and overall quantity of the product.

I don't believe that anyone would have health problems from abstaining from meat or dairy. However, that's not to say you can just cut certain things out and continue as you were. Part of the benefit of veganism is that encouragement of learning - knowing exactly what's going in to your body and what isn't, and tailoring what you eat to your specific needs to find balance. With the correct balance, even without knowing your condition, I can guarantee you that your health would improve.

Have a look at the link SOFI recently posted - http://forksoverknives.com

A plant-based diet will not only stop, but reverse the onset of many common conditions caused by meat/dairy consumption - including, but not limited to heart disease, various forms of cancer, diabetes..... of course, obesity is an obvious one.

The obsession for cheap meat and dairy is causing the most problems both on personal health and larger societal issues. Swine flu is a good example. Sourced from a disgusting slaughterhouse with zero interest on health/safety - so people can continue to eat their 99p McBacon whateverthefuckitis. I'm not seeing any "Sweetcorn Flu" or "Tomato Flu" lol.

And rather than, you know, actually keeping this animals in decent, disease-free conditions... they simply inject them with all kinds of antibiotics and whatnot. Short term solution.... long term - making the problem about a million times worse, because the disease and flu strains simply grow stronger and resistant to antibiotics over time.

One of my other issues is that I simply refuse to be lied to. And the dairy industry spend billions every year doing exactly that. Lying to people. How many billboards and ads and campaigns do you see about how milk is good for you and a healthy source of calcium? The opposite is true. If you have time, read Dr. Robert Kradjians "Milk Letter". You'll be shocked. http://www.notmilk.com/kradjian.html

Essentially, what happens is that the pasteurization process which is required to remove most of the blood, pus, etc from milk (which incidentally does not remove anywhere near all of it), also kills the enzymes that the human body requires to absorb the calcium from the milk. So actually it's completely ineffective. It's why the US has the most cows milk drinkers and also the highest rate of Osteoporosis, aka brittle bone disease. Conversely in eastern countries where soy milk is the norm, like Japan, there is virtually no osteoporosis at all.

The most effective source of calcium is simply green leafy vegetables. Spinach, broccoli, kale, cabbage and the like.

Furthermore milk might as well just be liquid fat. Drop dairy, see how much body fat you lose.

What it boils down to is this. If you care about any or all of the following issues - Veganism, or at the least, an effort to abstain wherever possible, is one of the best things you can do:

Living longer
Living healthier
Far less of risk of cancer, heart disease, amongst many others
Decreasing your carbon footprint and helping to stop world hunger (An acre of prime land can produce 40,000 pounds of potatoes, 30,000 pounds of carrots, 50,000 pounds of tomatoes; but only 250 pounds of beef)
Stopping animal cruelty on many levels, not just their death, but their quality of life - the methods used for mass extraction of milk are tantamount to slavery and rape.

Pretty much every vegan I know has said they thought it would be hard, even impossible, before they did it, but then discovered it was actually very easy.

...continued in next post due to character limit....

Casey · May 26, 2011

...continued from previous post...

Especially in the Western world, we have access to alternatives, which are not only healthier but vastly cheaper as well. I like to make stirfrys with marinated tofu, beansprouts, peppers, brocolli, carrots, onions, peas , and rice noodles. I can make the whole dish that will last at least a couple of days, for less than it would cost to make a single serving if it were a meat-based dish.

I can't knowingly contribute to death, cruelty, lies, high profit margins for greedy fat executives who don't care about anything else.....as well as my OWN health.... and pay more for the "privilege"? It's irrational and selfish and those are two things that I really try not to be.

What you eat is a learned habit. You learn it from your parents. Most people don't question that. It's like religion in that aspect, people are indoctrinated in certain ways before they can even communicate a conscious thought. I love my father and have a great deal of respect for him especially in his line of work and topics he is very learned about, but he's not a nutritionist. When else in life do we learn certain things from people who know nothing about that area? Any good nutritionist will say all the things I've said here and a lot more.

I try not to judge people. Something we're all guilty of. But I will also not deny facts or sugarcoat things to make people feel better. You eat meat and dairy, you're killing animals, supporting animal cruelty, exacerbating world hunger, supporting lies and misinformation, and if you don't care about ANY of that..... you're also slowly killing yourself and paying more to do so. People will get offended and they will get defensive at hearing that. I'm not saying those things make you a bad person. But people should, in general, ask themselves that question and then ask themselves if they are comfortable with whatever answer they have.

I've literally met people, who simply upon learning that I am a vegan, have instantly launched into an angrily defensive tirade. My face remains unchanged. Then they try mockery. Again, I'm unfazed. They work themselves into a frenzy attempting to find ways to inform me that I am wrong, when I have said nothing and made no personal judgement. As if simply the idea that somebody else is different somehow infringes on their own lifestyle like I've personally offended them somehow. Every thing they say, I counter it with a fact. They get more worked up and start gibbering on with unrelated meaningless nonsense. Usually peppered with some condescending remarks.

It's bizarre and clearly says more about them than anything else. I think in one way or another, everybody is looking for some clarity, some peace of mind, some answers in a complex world. Well, answers come via facts and irrefutable evidence. I have those. When it comes to what I put in my body - I have that clarity, I have that piece of mind and it doesn't require any more effort on my part than before I was vegan or vegetarian. I don't have to go out of my way, there's any number of health problems I am now far more safe from, I feel a million times healthier, I'm aware of everything going in to my body, and actually I have a far more varied diet that I find infinitely more delicious and fun than before.

What I laugh at the most is the common reaction from meat eaters, which goes something like this - "You're vegan? What the hell do you eat?"

As if "meat" and "dairy/animal byproducts" are the only food that exists on the planet. It says more about those people's limited mind frame than anything else. Not always their fault - as I said, it's learned in childhood and never questioned.

Conversely, vegetarianism and veganism tend to indicate a higher awareness, a higher level of thinking, and I personally enjoy being in the company of articulate, intelligent, creative, intellectual people. None of those traits are, of course, exclusive to vegetarians or vegans. However, they are undoubtedly far more common within them. I've yet to meet an unintelligent vegan.

In the same way, your average vegetarian restaurant will have better food than your average omnivorous restaurant, simply because it's basically a guaranteed indication that they care about what they're doing.

Pittsey · May 26, 2011

Thanks, Casey. This is exactly what I was looking for. Now to digest the info.

Anyone have any arguments against what Casey has stated?

S O F I · May 26, 2011

Pittsey said:

This was funny:

The hated part. LMAO

Jokerman · May 26, 2011

I would just add that Cheetos can be substituted for dairy and a can of Pringles is a serving of vegetables.

Prize Gotti · May 26, 2011

I gotta be honest here, every vegan I know looks less healthy since taking up a vegan diet than they did before. Even you Casey, I feel you look alot rougher and larger than you used to. I will admit though, I was forced to have a vegan diet for a week and i felt great. However, I am still in firm belief that the only healthy diet is a moderated one. No respectable nutritionist will tell you to stop eating meat. And I mean medically trained nutritionist, not some "nutrition expert" that you see in the media.

Casey · May 26, 2011

Prize Gotti said:

I dunno what pics of me you've seen but I lost 2 stone since I went vegan. I was almost 12 and a half 2 years ago and now I'm just over 10 and a half.

And nutritionists may not say "stop eating meat" - but they WILL say that it should be treated as a luxury that you pay a lot for to guarantee quality, and even then anything more than 4 times a week is too much. And they'll tell you that it should be lean cuts. None of my friends or family who eat meat pay attention to any of those things, they'll at meat at least once or twice a day if not more, it will almost never be expensive, quality stuff, and it will be rarely be lean cuts either.

Jokerman · May 26, 2011

Prize Gotti said:

The problem with many vegans/vegetarians is that they change their diets because of animal-abuse considerations, not because they wanted to eat healthier. That was just an added benefit to them. But because of that a lot of them don't look into how to do that in the healthiest way. So some might not be aware of the need for supplemental B-12. Or some get drawn into a raw-food diet which is not sustainable in the long run. Or they still eat sugary or salty junk, just not animal-based. I also find that some of them have toxic personalities, emotional problems. They're very anal and do things like count how many times they chew each bite. They are stressed and stress affects the way you look. Maybe they're not exercising enough or getting sun. Diet is not the end-all of health. You have to be happy. Or some change their diet because they're sick and want to get healthier. So it will take time before they start looking healthier. Also, some people go vegan to mask an eating disorder.

Then, again, those who are doing it right and are healthy, may not look like what most people think looks healthy because they're using as their model of a healthy look the average unhealthy person. Hello! Even if a person looks like they are at a good weight, if they are eating the average Western meat diet, they are overweight and unhealthy. Some have that "healthy" over-weight, high blood-pressured flushed look. "How come you vegans don't look like that." Um, because we're healthy and you don't know what healthy looks like. You've never thought about it. Healthy looks like a marathon runner. Healthy looks skinnier than the average person for their height. Sorry, but that's what health looks like. And people need to adjust their perceptions and start seeing the average "healthy" looking person as unhealthy looking. Just like a veggie meal is what a healthy meal looks like and meat eaters need to adjust to that. Because if a person is healthy, based on how fit they are, based on their blood chemistry levels, and based on their low incidence of heart attack, stroke and diabetes, then what they look like is the look of health. And what the average "healthy" person, whose medical indicators say is on the road to a heart attack, looks like, is the look of unhealth.

S O F I · May 26, 2011

If I ever go veggie, animal-abuse considerations will most definitely be the added benefit, not the other way around.

Pittsey · May 27, 2011

I already only eat my meat (and the veg that i don't grow myself) from an organic farm market. Or direct from the farm.

So i am aware of only putting the best meat i can in my body. And the welfare of the animal is improved.

Can some vegans post a typical daily diet, please?

I already take a b12 supplement, and iron and calcium because of my illness and the medication i take my body is deficient.

Also, what is the reason for not eating eggs?

Do you not wear wool product?

Sent using tapatalk so ignore my spelling and lack of punctuation.

Casey · May 27, 2011

stefanwzyga said:

That's mixed martial arts and UFC fighter Mac Danzig. Guaranteed to kick the ass of you and the "real men" you know. Also a vegan.

Try harder next time!

Flipmo · May 27, 2011

George Laraque, the Black guy - Vegan.

Pittsey · May 27, 2011

Why don't vegans eat eggs?

Which Veggie spread do you put on your toast?

Rukas - Come in this thread. You were veggie and now aren't correct? I'd like your input.

I drink a lot of milk. Probably 2 pints a day with Protein shakes. I read a lot about bleeding intestines. But if this was the case shouldn't you see it in your stool?

Prize Gotti · May 27, 2011

Jokerman said:

Then, again, those who are doing it right and are healthy, may not look like what most people think looks healthy because they're using as their model of a healthy look the average unhealthy person. Hello! Even if a person looks like they are at a good weight, if they are eating the average Western meat diet, they are overweight and unhealthy. Some have that "healthy" over-weight, high blood-pressured flushed look. "How come you vegans don't look like that." Um, because we're healthy and you don't know what healthy looks like. You've never thought about it. Healthy looks like a marathon runner. Healthy looks skinnier than the average person for their height. Sorry, but that's what health looks like. And people need to adjust their perceptions and start seeing the average "healthy" looking person as unhealthy looking. Just like a veggie meal is what a healthy meal looks like and meat eaters need to adjust to that. Because if a person is healthy, based on how fit they are, based on their blood chemistry levels, and based on their low incidence of heart attack, stroke and diabetes, then what they look like is the look of health. And what the average "healthy" person, whose medical indicators say is on the road to a heart attack, looks like, is the look of unhealth.

So basically what you are saying is that the real "healthy" people look identical to those with terminal illnesses? Some of the vegans Ive met i've mistaken for recovering cancer patients, herion users and anorexics. Which refers me to Caseys comment, maybe you're not getting fatter and are loosing weight, but you look bloated from malnutrition.

Pittsey · May 27, 2011

My diet currently is mainly meat and dairy. I realise this isn't healthy so I am looking for alternatives.

ARon · May 27, 2011

lol at posting pictures of vegetarians. Especially someone like Mac Danzig

Pittsey · May 27, 2011

I only buy milk that meets this standard. Don't know if it makes any difference. But i always buy the best meat and dairy i can.

Sent from my MoDaCo Custom ROM for the Advent Vega r8 using Tapatalk

Prize Gotti · May 27, 2011

Pittsey said:

My diet is mixed, I eat fresh fruit and veg every day, normally some kinda cheese sub for my lunch. I eat meat normally at most once a day, and i switch what kinda meat; one day lamb, another pork, another salmon etc. I do eat the occasional junk food, but I do have a high intake of energy drinks (1 can of monster every day) and cola. Other than being ill through stress or a virus, im extremely healthy. I had to have blood tests recently when i contracted a virus, they all come back with above average results in my favor. Not bad for some one whose abused their body with drugs and alcohol, which is why im sure a mixed moderated diet is why im in good health.

Vegan-ism Vs Vegetarianism

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