This Bitch

[THEV1LL4N]

^^ lol

edit: vg's post.

 

[vg4030]

Not really. We're basically flipping off the majority of our existing fanbase with the new album we're recording anyway as there won't be any punjabi vocals on there, it's an all English mainstream pop album.

Quite honestly, I couldn't care less if we lost every single fan we already have. Artistically this is the only thing we want to do. Fuck making another niche desi album, we've conquered that scene and have no interest in it any more. All the desi media in the UK are saying 'Sugarless' is the song of the year, or one of the songs of the year, so we're going out on a high note and embracing a new chapter.

So if you went to the Asian Music Awards and basically said that guy is a terrorist and religion is a joke you would lose nothing?

Even if you dont do the desi thing anymore, Im assuming it wont tide well with other markets.. you are not just talking desi religions but ALL religions.

Lets say you were at the Grammy's or MTV awards. Would you say the same thing?

 

[THEV1LL4N]

regardless, the principle is the same. he would be implying the same thing because its directed at a specific group but may be telling a different audience.

casey, i was quite angered today about what you said, similarly to how i angered you with the statements i came out with. they were exaggerated on my behalf and were blown out of proportion.

however, one thing i really like about my non-religious friends is that they respect my beliefs and values and i respect theirs too. we have that mutual respect for one another even if we have completely different upbringings and perspectives on particular issues.

you could do the same because for someone who seems very mature about pretty much everything else, you seem a little immature when you swear at religion and curse other people's beliefs. that's entirely in your control.

like you said you support your arguments. i just believe the profanity is unnecessary.

thank you.

 

[Casey]

So if you went to the Asian Music Awards and basically said that guy is a terrorist and religion is a joke you would lose nothing?

Exactly. In fact it would make front page news of all the desi newspapers, because it's not that hard to do. A couple of years ago the front page stories were all about how one of the BBC presenters got ridiculously drunk at the AMA's or something. Another time a very famous desi female singer (who is married to our dhol player) got some racist abuse from some skinheads while filming a music video on location somewhere in London and that managed to become front page news too. All publicity = good publicity IMO. And controversy always makes for good publicity.

Even if you dont do the desi thing anymore, Im assuming it wont tide well with other markets.. you are not just talking desi religions but ALL religions.

Lets say you were at the Grammy's or MTV awards. Would you say the same thing?

I already know what I'm going to say when I win a Grammy.......and atheism definitely has a place in that speech. I could go all out and say Fuck god, fuck jesus, fuck religion, but Marilyn Manson already did that. I love him, he pisses off those religious fruitcakes without even trying just from the way he dresses. Don't be surprised if I take a few tips from the Manson school of thought on my next album (debut is 90% done but I'm already planning the second).

 

[Sebastian]

however, one thing i really like about my non-religious friends is that they respect my beliefs and values and i respect theirs too. we have that mutual respect for one another even if we have completely different upbringings and perspectives on particular issues

I think ive said that before but, you cant respect a certain belief/value if you think its wrong. You can just tolerate it.

 

[Casey]

I think ive said that before but, you cant respect a certain belief/value if you think its wrong. You can just tolerate it.

Exactly.

casey, i was quite angered today about what you said, similarly to how i angered you with the statements i came out with. they were exaggerated on my behalf and were blown out of proportion.

I knew that you would be. You got angry because you were unable to defend your beliefs against cold, hard, facts.

But let's not get it twisted here. What you said was ignorant, discriminatory, bigoted, a complete generalization against a group of society that is no different to any other because sexual preference does not define one's character and it has no relevance to whether someone is a good or a bad person. You make ridiculous statements such as you don't agree with "what they do" and other rubbish like that. Who is they and what do they do? Whether you exaggerated or not - it's still how you feel.

What I said was true. Religion is an evil and corrupt concept and every religion is rotten to the core. Fact. They are all completely hypocritical, irrelevant, and halting the progress of humankind.

The main difference, however, is that sexual preference is not something you have control over. It's hardwired into your DNA. You can't control it any more than you can control the color of your skin. Saying that homosexuality is wrong and that you don't agree with it is like saying that it's wrong to be white/black/brown/jewish/chinese and that you don't agree with "what they do" - they being any particular race of people. It's a completely moronic statement.

However, you can choose to have no part of the religious system that you were indoctrinated into. That's what I chose to do after realizing it was all bogus. I was taken to Hindu temples and Christian churches as a kid with the respective sides of my family. Both sects of society firmly believed in their faith with their own theories and stories. Obviously I understood early on that they both could not be right, however they could both be wrong, and they are, like any other religion. I went to a largely (but not strictly) Christian school where they made us recite the Lord's prayer every morning. I refused to and told them I didn't believe in, and was given detentions and suspensions for it until they realized that their efforts were futile and I wasn't weak-minded like every other kid in the school who believed in their bullshit.

however, one thing i really like about my non-religious friends is that they respect my beliefs and values and i respect theirs too. we have that mutual respect for one another even if we have completely different upbringings and perspectives on particular issues.

I very much doubt you've ever had a serious, deep debate with anyone you know in real life regarding religion. It's not conducive to a friendship. You ignore the things you don't agree with for the sake of the friendship and focus on what you DO have in common. That's how it works. A former friend of mine was a meat eating misogynist. He wasn't smart enough to defend his choices so I knew that a serious debate was futile and pointless, so those topics were never discussed.

you could do the same because for someone who seems very mature about pretty much everything else, you seem a little immature when you swear at religion and curse other people's beliefs. that's entirely in your control.

Sometimes you have to hammer the point home.

But sure - I can do it without profanity, it's just less fun. How does this work for you:

I sincerely, from the very bottom of my heart, hope that the irrelevant, nonsense, fictional works known as the bible, the granth sahib and the koran all get trapped in floods, rendering their texts completely incomprehensible. Following that, their mushy remainders should be fed to birds, digested, and excreted over the car windows of those who believe in them.

Better? Hey,I was wrong! That was still fun!

 

[vg4030]

Regardless of whether being homosexual is hard wired into your DNA or not doesnt discount the fact that it is 100% unnatural and against nature.

Religion doesnt advance mankind.. fair enough thats your opinion, but how does being homosexual advance it's progress?

 

[Flipmo]

I think ive said that before but, you cant respect a certain belief/value if you think its wrong. You can just tolerate it.

We all have our reasons why we belief in certain things, depending on our upbringing and life experiences. Life experiences and society shape individuals and character. That's where the respect comes from, if a person believes in something that does not harm another, yes it can be respected by putting yourself in their shoes and trying to see things where they're coming from. The reason you can't respect it is because of the inability to put yourself in another man's position, so all you are capable of doing is toleration.

I can see why Casey would react the way he does though, the shit was forced upon him in schools and constant repetition of "This is the right belief". I know a lot that went through the same case and have a similar feeling about religion as a whole.
I was lucky, it was never forced upon me, I was brought to church by my grandparents as a kid, but it was mostly due to being the only place where our Croatian community gathered (We're a very small community here you see, maybe only 500-1000), but I was always given the option to believe on my own what is right. So maybe that's why I don't really get upset involving things like this and can see eye to eye with people.
My Grandfather always told me that nobody else will live my life but me, so I'm better off carving my own path and beliefs than someone else that has never walked my road. So, I just do my thing and absorb everything around me until I find my own conclusion that feels right.

 

[Chronic]

the fact that it is 100% unnatural and against nature.

Homosexuality among animals?

Homosexual behavior in animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"A 1999 review by researcher Bruce Bagemihl shows that homosexual behavior has been observed in close to 1500 species, ranging from primates to gut worms, and is well documented for 500 of them."

Hate to quote wiki but it should do.

but how does being homosexual advance it's progress?

If you look around you'll find some research that tries to answer that question.

 

[vg4030]

Homosexuality among animals?

Homosexual behavior in animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"A 1999 review by researcher Bruce Bagemihl shows that homosexual behavior has been observed in close to 1500 species, ranging from primates to gut worms, and is well documented for 500 of them."

Hate to quote wiki but it should do.

If you look around you'll find some research that tries to answer that question.

Animals/Humans... the bits just dont fit!
Were they born that way or did they 'become gay' from their situation? i.e. no females/males around?
Who says that animals cant be hardwired that way like humans can.. it doesnt make it normal just because it exists in the animal kingdom..
I very much doubt that men being gay is linked to displaying male dominance in a pack (excluding prison) as it is with some animals

If you can point a source on the second point I would be interested.

 

[Flipmo]

Homosexual couples are more likely to adopt a kid, something heterosexual couples don't do as often as they should (because they want a child that is theirs, which is understandable). That in a way is progress, it gives children that were abandoned another chance at a family.

Progress isn't only scientific and technological. It also the small things like social settings and spirituality that increase happiness among people. At least I've always seen it that way.

 

[vg4030]

I wasnt thinking scientific progress.. but social etc.. just because people are happier it doesnt mean people have progressed. If tomorrow everyone in the world is given $10m more people would be happier but it doesnt do society any good..what about the people who have worked for their money and now others get a free ride?

Like in adoption, its understandable for people who cannot conceive or for a child from a bad background.. but is that a 'stable' environment to bring up a child in? What about the mother/father bond?

 

[Casey]

Regardless of whether being homosexual is hard wired into your DNA or not doesnt discount the fact that it is 100% unnatural and against nature.

And yet more bigoted comments come to the surface.

"Unnatural" "Against Nature"? These are the same nauseating things that the hate preachers say.

First of all - it happens. Naturally. So how can it be unnatural?

You speak from only one viewpoint - the ideology of sex being something just done to procreate. Are you trying to have children every time you have sex?

By that logic, kissing is unnatural. It's a sexual activity that won't result in procreation. Masturbation is unnatural. Handjobs are unnatural by your logic. Fingering is unnatural, blowjobs and cunnilingus are unnatural, anal sex is unnatural. Let's hate on all the people that enjoy those activities! Let's treat them all like lower class citizens! All those things are against nature! GTFO with that shit.

The fact that homosexuality exists amongst animals, as Chronic stated, debunks your ridiculous "against nature" theory.

 

[Flipmo]

Maybe I didn't explain myself well with the happiness thing, that was more in relation of giving someone that has nothing a 2nd chance. Some of the most simple things like humility, and being helpful are a sign of inner progress. How often do people walk by someone sleeping on the streets, and and ignores them completely, instead of giving them some money, or even buying them a meal or a blanket. It happens all the time. People are selfish, that's no progression, that's regression.

I wouldn't care if everyone got 10MIL in the world, and I had to work with mine. I don't see how anyone could be angry that a kid in Africa that's starving gets 10 MIL.

As for a child being brought up in an environment where both parents are a homosexual couple, studies apparently say that it is no different than a heterosexual couple. At least that's what my girl tells me. (She's in psych and works with people doing their PHds on the topic, so I get most of my studies from whatever she shows me which she ain't allowed to lol)

 

[Casey]

Like in adoption, its understandable for people who cannot conceive or for a child from a bad background.. but is that a 'stable' environment to bring up a child in? What about the mother/father bond?

There's nothing stable or unstable about it based upon the sexual orientations or genders of the parents.

That is all relative to the relationship. A happy gay couple would provide a far more stable environment than an unhappy straight couple.

As for the mother/father bond, again, it's not necessary. I grew up motherless but I had strong female figures in my life like my aunts and older female cousins to provide me with their knowledge and wisdom from a female perspective.

MJ's kids don't have a mother figure in their life. I saw some home footage recently with them in it alongside Jermaine's kids, Randy's kids......Michael's children were clearly the most mature, intelligent and rounded of all them. It was evident. They ain't missing out on anything (well, they are now since Michael is gone, but that's not the point..)

 

[Flipmo]

What Casey says is also true. My father was never around, my uncle and grandfather became my father figures. When you lose one, another steps up. While it would have been nice to have the immediate parents around working together, we adapt to our surroundings and make the best with what we have.

 

[ArtsyGirl]

Like in adoption, its understandable for people who cannot conceive or for a child from a bad background.. but is that a 'stable' environment to bring up a child in? What about the mother/father bond?

Stable environment? Like the one where they get passed around from family to family? Or where they are in a centre full of other children without parents? I understand a child needs a balance of male/female influence but it's not a deal breaker. There a millions of children who come from single parent homes. And I feel if there is a supportive environment where there is extended family (theres your female or male adult) then it shouldn't matter whether its a male/male or female/female family the child goes to.

 

[vg4030]

And yet more bigoted comments come to the surface.

"Unnatural" "Against Nature"? These are the same nauseating things that the hate preachers say.

First of all - it happens. Naturally. So how can it be unnatural?

You speak from only one viewpoint - the ideology of sex being something just done to procreate. Are you trying to have children every time you have sex?

By that logic, kissing is unnatural. It's a sexual activity that won't result in procreation. Masturbation is unnatural. Handjobs are unnatural by your logic. Fingering is unnatural, blowjobs and cunnilingus are unnatural, anal sex is unnatural. Let's hate on all the people that enjoy those activities! Let's treat them all like lower class citizens! All those things are against nature! GTFO with that shit.

The fact that homosexuality exists amongst animals, as Chronic stated, debunks your ridiculous "against nature" theory.

I like handjobs as much as the next guy.. Where did I say it HAS to lead to procreation?

Some people are born with a cancer gene.. should they not get treated for it as it occurred 'naturally'?

 

[vg4030]

Stable environment? Like the one where they get passed around from family to family? Or where they are in a centre full of other children without parents? I understand a child needs a balance of male/female influence but it's not a deal breaker. There a millions of children who come from single parent homes. And I feel if there is a supportive environment where there is extended family (theres your female or male adult) then it shouldn't matter whether its a male/male or female/female family the child goes to.

I have nothing against being in a single parent home.. did I say so?
Who said anything about being passed around from family to family.. are you saying that if a child goes to a gay home they are less likely to be sent back to a foster center?

 

[Casey]

I like handjobs as much as the next guy.. Where did I say it HAS to lead to procreation?

You implied that by stating that homosexuality is unnatural. If you have another reason for believing it to be unnatural, please explain.

Some people are born with a cancer gene.. should they not get treated for it as it occurred 'naturally'?

And now you're comparing homosexuality with cancer. Wow. You're not really supporting your cause very well. I'm not the one going around saying things are "natural" or "unnatural", I don't believe in using those terms.