Please explain...

#21
I don't have time right now to respond to everyone. But just because you are a color does not make you exempt to being racist against that color. There are many black people who are racist against their own, there are many white people who are racist against white people, all the way down to any race.

Americaz, way to articulate an argument. I hope you get your GED someday.
EDouble, you totally misquoted my comment and didn't even make an attempt to understand my point. Way to open-minded you two. Thumbs-up.

Meltiger, I think alot of the discussion on LTTG is simply a difference of opinion on good music. Cause while I don't like the whole album, especially the last three tracks - heck, I probably only listen to four tracks total - I thought Ghetto Gospel was vintage Tupac. But I do agree it could've been better, I don't have a Ph.D in music to state whether it could've been better or worse due to Eminem or not. But Pac's two verses on that song are exactly why I put Pac as #1 among rap artists -- his political commentary. I just wish he would've been around to put a third verse to it.

He used the Tupac album solely as a means of promoting his own artists.
Yeah, straight up, I thought it was ridiculous that Obie Trice was on a track with Pac. I mean, I love Obie Trice and I think he has a unique style and flow clearly lacking in today's rap...but to get a track with Pac as Em is executive producing is ridiculous. Then you have Dido. And Elton John. Even Nate Dogg is tight with Eminem. It was a marketing tool for Shady and that is wrong. But I liked the above mentioned duets. But I also liked BNTH with Phil Collins. So WTF.
 
#23
emking said:
I thought Ghetto Gospel was vintage Tupac. But I do agree it could've been better, I don't have a Ph.D in music to state whether it could've been better or worse due to Eminem or not. But Pac's two verses on that song are exactly why I put Pac as #1 among rap artists -- his political commentary. I just wish he would've been around to put a third verse to it.
I might respond to the rest of this later but I have to point out to you that the OG of Ghetto Gospel has four verses. Eminem cut out two of them. Yet another reason people rightly believe that Em fucked up the album. Here, why don't you listen to it the way Pac recorded it, and then come back here and try to say Em's version even stands up to this piece of trash Em calls a song:
hxxp://s37.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2TKUOOWJX6HNY0H2BMN7WFYNAU
 
#25
DeeezNuuuts83 said:
I wouldn't say that Pac fans, specifically the ones on this board, feel that they are more intimately involved than those actually involved with Pac's music. It's just that we, the fans who have been loyal since the early 1990s, have a reasonable level of expectations for Pac's music. Pac knew that his fans had expectations, and while he was alive he met and exceeded them.

Obviously with his death, Pac himself can't do that; it's up to those associated with Amaru Records overseeing his posthumous releases. But the reason why the powers that be remove certain rappers or replace sampled and/or interpolated beats with remixed beats is MONEY. Like any business, Amaru's primary objective is to make as much profit as possible, which is done through things like higher sales and lower costs; unfortunately Amaru focuses more on the latter of the two. And who does this money come from? Certainly not those involved with Pac's music. It comes from Pac fans--the CONSUMERS--who want a quality product in exchange for their $15. The money that Amaru pays to producers and other people involved came from the money that they made off of us from the previous albums.

That is why a lot of us hardcore Pac fans feel so involved. Partially because we are passionate about Pac's music, and partially because we want what we deserve (or pay for, if you want to be technical). And those involved aren't nearly as "intimately involved," otherwise we'd have ourselves truly worthy follow-ups to All Eyez on Me and the Makaveli album. In addition, it's damn near impossible to just look the other way as Amaru makes terrible business decisions regarding Pac's music from various aspects--musical, economical, marketability, etc.

I couldn't tell you how to conjure up an album that would guarantee five million sales, but I have gone through enough classes and seminars and listened to enough music as a consumer, the main person to be satisfied, to know a few things:

* Familiarity. Whenever you see that Mercedes-Benz font on TV or in a magazine ad, you know it's a Benz. When you see those five bars increasing in height, you know it's a Cingular commercial. When you see those white words in cursive over a red background, you know it's a Coca-Cola product. The popular "2Pac" logo used on the covers of Me Against the World and All Eyez on Me was a great logo, and it was recognized by people on the cover of R U Still Down. After that, they have been using a different 2Pac logo every album. It's true that 2Pac CDs will always be under "2Pac" or "Tupac" in the rap CD section, but when the average consumer is just walking by, he/she pretty much only stops when their attention is caught (perhaps through the recognition of something familiar) when they aren't already planning to look for that product.

* Marketability. 2Pac logo aside, the product must be presentable. I remember when I first saw the Still I Rise cover, I thought some idiot just slapped together some pictures and words on Paintbrush as a joke. And then on December 14th, 1999, I walked into Best Buy, disappointed to see such an ugly cover. And that week, it debuted on Billboard behind DMX's ...And Then There Was X, which had much better cover art. And after that, Amaru just used really weird fonts on the albums. I'm not saying that a better font would've lead to significantly greater sales, but they definitely half-assed too many Pac albums in some of the easiest areas.

* Investment. I can understand why Amaru would want to minimize their overhead costs through the disposal of original beats, many of which were sampled or interpolated, and the creation of newer beats that won't require the same clearances but may sound more "up-to-date," which might attract the average consumer that isn't a die-hard fan. However, you get what you pay for. For example, many American car manufacturers have invested very little money in research and development or quality materials. (Obviously, I'm quite a car guy, and if you're not, then the next few sentences might not make too much sense.) International car manufacturers have been dedicating tons of their own resources toward staying ahead of the game, and this is why they not only make better products but outsell American brands (especially GM). For a while, American car manufacturer's half-assing helped them make money with minimal overhead (think Still I Rise, Until the End of Time, Better Dayz), but the consumers started to realize that the product was only getting worse and worse (think Loyal to the Game) so they went elsewhere for their wants and needs. Basically, if Amaru wants to sell a lot, they might as well invest more money into their efforts which will lead to a better product and more sales, rather than ditching a perfectly fine OG beat (in many cases, but not all) and hiring some washed up producer (Johnny "J"... just my opinion) or some rapper-turned-producer who wants to do it for free but in reality is a hit-and-miss producer who usually misses, and misses bad. When viewing his producing skills, if Eminem were a quarterback, he'd be former Oakland Raider Rich Gannon in Superbowl XXXVII... sure, there were a few touchdowns, but he threw a Superbowl record five interceptions in that game... 48-21. It wasn't just a loss, it was a pure failure, mostly because of him. Maybe if the powers that be were willing to shell out another $25,000 or so, perhaps they could've gotten another DJ Quik or Scott Storch beat instead of 13 Eminem beats and sold another opening week's worth of records which definitely would've made up for the difference in cost.

* Promotion. Take Biggie's new Duets album. Before it was released, there were already more than two radio singles. A video was made. Diddy, a popular music mogul who knows business, is always shouting out the album in damn near every appearance he makes. The album is littered with tons of today's hottest artists, many of whom Biggie was down with. Amaru has burned bridges with too many of Pac's non-Outlaw friends in the music industry, so who is left to shout out Pac and promote him? The Outlawz? No wonder. (As a side note, I remember the Outlawz making a guest appearance in BET's Da Bassment, and Kastro was like, "Everybody, go buy the album, please. It sounded like he was going to cry.)

* Quality. If you're trying to create a masterpiece while pinching pennies and cutting corners, at least make a good product. And if it can't be done, then do what you have to do to put out quality, whether it is to cut your losses and get rid of your production, or, God forbid, drop some money for quality. Kind of like what we the consumers do when we go to the CD store, except we haven't been getting it.

If Amaru Records could do these things, we'd have a lot less to complain about and more to praise. One might argue that even with a better product we'd complain anyway like we did when the previous albums came out. I think not. Most people were very satisfied with the leaked songs from the Makaveli & Dillinger EP that Daz made with few complaints.

I really hope that Amaru never gives Eminem the opportunity to touch a single Pac track ever, especially after he made bland versions of those previously unreleased songs on the Resurrection soundtrack and after ruining almost an entire album of Pac material afterward. In all honesty, if I had to choose between Eminem and Lil Jon doing production... Lil Jon would win. His beats are at least at a fast enough tempo to be on pace with Pac's vocals and can be danced to; you can hardly even do the robot in slow motion to the majority of Eminem's beats.
post of the year
 
#27
emking said:
Meltiger, I think alot of the discussion on LTTG is simply a difference of opinion on good music. Cause while I don't like the whole album, especially the last three tracks - heck, I probably only listen to four tracks total -
You couldn't possibly tell me you like the Trice version of Hennessy as opposed to the Red Spyda one?! The Red Spyda one is dope, the other is annoying as fuck. That beat is truly terrible.

emking said:
I thought Ghetto Gospel was vintage Tupac. But I do agree it could've been better, I don't have a Ph.D in music to state whether it could've been better or worse due to Eminem or not. But Pac's two verses on that song are exactly why I put Pac as #1 among rap artists -- his political commentary.
I'm not talking about Pac's lyrical content ... My only issue with the lyrical content is the contrived shout outs which others have mentioned.

emking said:
I just wish he would've been around to put a third verse to it.
OG was four verses. You'd have to ask Marshall why they were cut ...

Don't get me wrong ... I like the idea of what Em tried to do with the song, the beat and Elton are fantastic ... He fucked his voice up though, that is something you cannot run away from.

Especially if you listen to the OG and compare it to what Em did to it ...

& for the record, I can absoloutely promise you my dislike of the album has nothing to do with Em himself. If he had produced a masterpiece I would have given him the credit he would have deserved. Fact is ... He didn't.
 

AmerikazMost

Well-Known Member
#29
emking said:
Americaz, way to articulate an argument. I hope you get your GED someday.
I don't want to get too cocky with my history and all, but I will say that I graduated second in my class and attend a top 50 university in the world. Let's just say you picked the wrong insult to make.

The way I see it, you're using the race card as an excuse for the criticism of Eminem's poor production rather than admitting that your "king" could do anything less than spectacular. Calling us racist shields yourself from the disappointment of Eminem's failure.
 
#30
You couldn't possibly tell me you like the Trice version of Hennessy as opposed to the Red Spyda one?! The Red Spyda one is dope, the other is annoying as fuck. That beat is truly terrible.
To be honest man, I loved Em's version of hennesy much more then Red Spyda's version. Em's was contemporary, it fits OUR time.

Everyone gets on Em because he used beats and shit that are more popular in today's culture. Yet everyone fails to realize that IF Pac was still around, his music would have indefiniatly changed, just as his music changed from 2Pacalypse Now to All Eyez on Me. It would have evolved, just as rap itself has evolved. I can't blame Em for using modern beats with Pac's vocals, and personally, I loved Loyal To the Games production.

Don't get me wrong, the entire fact that he cut and pasted to do the whole shout out to himself was ludicrious. It was the only negative aspect of the album.

Emking, I agree with you to an extent, and I also see the arguements provided by Rukas and DeezNuts.

But personally, Em produced all those beats, expected nothing in return for it, so can you really blame him all that much? Em brought Pac's music to younger fans, which in turn may open them up to older Pac material.

I'm torn on the issue, and I don't believe FreeTupac's message is racially motivated.

But my main point it, Tupac's music would have probably altered itself just as the rest of the rap industry has. Hell, even Immortal Technique used more contemporary beats for Revolutionary Vol. 2 then for Vol. 1. With modern beats, with those over emphasized beats, that you all diss Em for so much, you can open the music up to the younger generation especially that is drawn to those beats. I dunno, I dont know if what im saying you all agree with, thats just my opinion.

But Emking, your point that us fans have no idea what Tupac would have wanted... your very right.

I know i've been quoting Immortal Tehcnique lately, but....

"You know what I think is just pathetic and gay, when niggas speculate, what the fuck Pac would say, you don't know shit about a dead man's perspective, and talkin shit will get your neck bone disconnected." hahaha.

Thats perfect. Peace yall, have a good christmas if you celebrate it.
 
#31
DeeezNuuuts83 said:
I wouldn't say that Pac fans, specifically the ones on this board, feel that they are more intimately involved than those actually involved with Pac's music. It's just that we, the fans who have been loyal since the early 1990s, have a reasonable level of expectations for Pac's music. Pac knew that his fans had expectations, and while he was alive he met and exceeded them.

Obviously with his death, Pac himself can't do that; it's up to those associated with Amaru Records overseeing his posthumous releases. But the reason why the powers that be remove certain rappers or replace sampled and/or interpolated beats with remixed beats is MONEY. Like any business, Amaru's primary objective is to make as much profit as possible, which is done through things like higher sales and lower costs; unfortunately Amaru focuses more on the latter of the two. And who does this money come from? Certainly not those involved with Pac's music. It comes from Pac fans--the CONSUMERS--who want a quality product in exchange for their $15. The money that Amaru pays to producers and other people involved came from the money that they made off of us from the previous albums.

That is why a lot of us hardcore Pac fans feel so involved. Partially because we are passionate about Pac's music, and partially because we want what we deserve (or pay for, if you want to be technical). And those involved aren't nearly as "intimately involved," otherwise we'd have ourselves truly worthy follow-ups to All Eyez on Me and the Makaveli album. In addition, it's damn near impossible to just look the other way as Amaru makes terrible business decisions regarding Pac's music from various aspects--musical, economical, marketability, etc.

I couldn't tell you how to conjure up an album that would guarantee five million sales, but I have gone through enough classes and seminars and listened to enough music as a consumer, the main person to be satisfied, to know a few things:

* Familiarity. Whenever you see that Mercedes-Benz font on TV or in a magazine ad, you know it's a Benz. When you see those five bars increasing in height, you know it's a Cingular commercial. When you see those white words in cursive over a red background, you know it's a Coca-Cola product. The popular "2Pac" logo used on the covers of Me Against the World and All Eyez on Me was a great logo, and it was recognized by people on the cover of R U Still Down. After that, they have been using a different 2Pac logo every album. It's true that 2Pac CDs will always be under "2Pac" or "Tupac" in the rap CD section, but when the average consumer is just walking by, he/she pretty much only stops when their attention is caught (perhaps through the recognition of something familiar) when they aren't already planning to look for that product.

* Marketability. 2Pac logo aside, the product must be presentable. I remember when I first saw the Still I Rise cover, I thought some idiot just slapped together some pictures and words on Paintbrush as a joke. And then on December 14th, 1999, I walked into Best Buy, disappointed to see such an ugly cover. And that week, it debuted on Billboard behind DMX's ...And Then There Was X, which had much better cover art. And after that, Amaru just used really weird fonts on the albums. I'm not saying that a better font would've lead to significantly greater sales, but they definitely half-assed too many Pac albums in some of the easiest areas.

* Investment. I can understand why Amaru would want to minimize their overhead costs through the disposal of original beats, many of which were sampled or interpolated, and the creation of newer beats that won't require the same clearances but may sound more "up-to-date," which might attract the average consumer that isn't a die-hard fan. However, you get what you pay for. For example, many American car manufacturers have invested very little money in research and development or quality materials. (Obviously, I'm quite a car guy, and if you're not, then the next few sentences might not make too much sense.) International car manufacturers have been dedicating tons of their own resources toward staying ahead of the game, and this is why they not only make better products but outsell American brands (especially GM). For a while, American car manufacturer's half-assing helped them make money with minimal overhead (think Still I Rise, Until the End of Time, Better Dayz), but the consumers started to realize that the product was only getting worse and worse (think Loyal to the Game) so they went elsewhere for their wants and needs. Basically, if Amaru wants to sell a lot, they might as well invest more money into their efforts which will lead to a better product and more sales, rather than ditching a perfectly fine OG beat (in many cases, but not all) and hiring some washed up producer (Johnny "J"... just my opinion) or some rapper-turned-producer who wants to do it for free but in reality is a hit-and-miss producer who usually misses, and misses bad. When viewing his producing skills, if Eminem were a quarterback, he'd be former Oakland Raider Rich Gannon in Superbowl XXXVII... sure, there were a few touchdowns, but he threw a Superbowl record five interceptions in that game... 48-21. It wasn't just a loss, it was a pure failure, mostly because of him. Maybe if the powers that be were willing to shell out another $25,000 or so, perhaps they could've gotten another DJ Quik or Scott Storch beat instead of 13 Eminem beats and sold another opening week's worth of records which definitely would've made up for the difference in cost.

* Promotion. Take Biggie's new Duets album. Before it was released, there were already more than two radio singles. A video was made. Diddy, a popular music mogul who knows business, is always shouting out the album in damn near every appearance he makes. The album is littered with tons of today's hottest artists, many of whom Biggie was down with. Amaru has burned bridges with too many of Pac's non-Outlaw friends in the music industry, so who is left to shout out Pac and promote him? The Outlawz? No wonder. (As a side note, I remember the Outlawz making a guest appearance in BET's Da Bassment, and Kastro was like, "Everybody, go buy the album, please. It sounded like he was going to cry.)

* Quality. If you're trying to create a masterpiece while pinching pennies and cutting corners, at least make a good product. And if it can't be done, then do what you have to do to put out quality, whether it is to cut your losses and get rid of your production, or, God forbid, drop some money for quality. Kind of like what we the consumers do when we go to the CD store, except we haven't been getting it.

If Amaru Records could do these things, we'd have a lot less to complain about and more to praise. One might argue that even with a better product we'd complain anyway like we did when the previous albums came out. I think not. Most people were very satisfied with the leaked songs from the Makaveli & Dillinger EP that Daz made with few complaints.

I really hope that Amaru never gives Eminem the opportunity to touch a single Pac track ever, especially after he made bland versions of those previously unreleased songs on the Resurrection soundtrack and after ruining almost an entire album of Pac material afterward. In all honesty, if I had to choose between Eminem and Lil Jon doing production... Lil Jon would win. His beats are at least at a fast enough tempo to be on pace with Pac's vocals and can be danced to; you can hardly even do the robot in slow motion to the majority of Eminem's beats.
Nicely put, I'll rep you for this post!
 
#32
DrugBa11ad said:
To be honest man, I loved Em's version of hennesy much more then Red Spyda's version. Em's was contemporary, it fits OUR time.

But my main point it, Tupac's music would have probably altered itself just as the rest of the rap industry has.
Doesn't MY time, nor Pac's time.

Pac's music may have changed, but you can be sure he and his producers would have been the driving forces behind it, and much of the true shit we hear now, we would not be hearing if Pac was alive.


The Spyda beat, I thought is something you could have seen something rapping over... The Trice version ... Something you would hear at a fucking Carnival.

It was rubbish.
 

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