Pac was a difficult artist to work with

[Saaphir]

when orlando got punked out, he had no other choice but to exact revenge asap. think about it, even in your own life if some people walk up to you and beats the living crap out of you in public, are you just going to say ho hum and move on? na. even the most pussy of you guys would do something.

Orlando Anderson got killed in 199sumthin (maybe 1998)...I guess what goes around comes around.(And yes,I believe that Orlando Anderson killed 2pac.The US government or the FBI have nothing to do with 2pac's murder,in my opinion.)

 

[StayinTrue]

I think if you shared pac work ethic, u'd get along fine. If ou didnt, as long as you didnt stop him from doing his thng, it woulda been cool. Cuz i also think Pac was pretty understanding when it came to shit like that. If someone had a different methode of working, pac could respect that.

On the other topic of this thread. I still dont believe that pac was the target, i think they were going for suge. To me it explains why he was siad to be happy and upbeat after the shooting, he just survived a shooting aimed at him, and he knew it. But thats just my opinion, based on no acually facts.

 

[Buyaka]

Pac was a hardheaded, opinionated, stubborn, cocky, loudmouth that probally made him a difficult artist to work with....and those characteristics about him is what got him killed...i believe if pac was humble he would still be here...but if he was humble would we still be as interested in him as we are now....what are your thoughts?

Pac was a strong, out-spoken, caring, confident young male that caused alot of buzz when he entered the studio... and these characteristics are what helped immortalise him after his death .. its amazing how people who werent even listening to Pac back then can just pick up his album and become "addicted" to his life -

^^^^^^^^
I fixed your post - thats what you should of said ..

Peace

 

[DutchPac2]

a couple things lead me not to give much credit to the whole suge theory...

• suge got hit too. as you mentioned, i don't know a single person who would put themselves in harm's way for a flimsy alibi. if you look at the pictures of the bmw at http://www.2pacshakur.net/2pac/showthread.php?t=1904 it becomes pretty clear that the shots fired at the car were VERY random and poorly placed. any single shot could have hit suge in the head killing him instantly.
• suge's history. look at how suge has conducted his business over time. first he economically strongarmed dre out of his ruthless contract, then did the same with vanilla ice to get completely undeserved points on "ice, ice baby," when dre left suge pretty much made him leave with nothing and no rights to a catalog worth millions, same with snoop, suge signed crooked-i in a life contract and when crooked started talking smack suge buried his album (the contract disallows him to use the crooked-i monicker on any other label, essentially giving suge his artistic career), and countless other incidents. you're not off base when you say that suge's a mean s.o.b., but if he thought pac was leaving, he'd have forced him to leave the same way as dre and snoop - with nothing. imagine that, all the songs pac recorded on death row in the hands of suge and suge alone... suge still pulls annual revenue of several tens of millions a year on chronic, doggystyle, doggfather, above the rim, murder was the case, and death row's gh alone. toss in 20 albums of pac material and he'd be crazy rich.

pac was set up to start makaveli records and euphanasia as subsidiaries of death row. whether or not pac was going to continue his relationship with death row is fairly up for speculation, but the groundwork was definitely set for these two companies to be under the death row tree. it's my take on everything that shock was right when he said that pac wasn't happy at dr as an artist, and was therefore going to try his role as a talent managing subsidiary ceo. pac would reap the best of both worlds... he's get to keep and maintain his own accounting and financing, as well as sign artists to him and not death row, all while having the financial and power backing of suge. suge would always earn money off of pac, but he'd in many ways be no different than how a distro/publisher are these days. 50's label under em's label, which are umbrella'ed under aftermath are a good illustration.

so yeah, this was a long winded way of saying suge had more to gain from an alive pac than a dead one.

That second point certainly makes sense. But what if he thought he was gonna get the catologue as wel.
Point is, he thought pac was his friend, and in someway Pac betrayed that with leaving. You say he was continuin on Deathrow. You can’t be 100% sure of that. He allready sacked that lawyer (David Kenner was his name?). He told the Outlawz to never sign at Deathrow. Why if he intented to stay?
It's possible suge wasn't thinking clear because he had emotions. Not likely for someone like him, but still possible.

For me another big point is this: why did someone of the entourage whisper in Pac's ear Orlando Anderson stole a Deathrow medalion. In no way that makes sense, it leads to one conclusion.

I think it’s hard to compare Eminems and 50’s situation with pacs and Suges. I don’t think Eminem is a person to fear and I believe Suge is a person to fear. You allready mentioned why.

And yeah, i think Orlando Andersson was the one who killed Pac. But that ain’t saying nothing about who ordered it. I don’t believe all those complicated theories Saaphir allready mentioned, but wouldn’t be suprised if there is more to it than just a simple retaliation.

I must remark I ain’t familiar with the ways gangs handle their business, that might be part of it. For me it is hard to get Orlando wanted to kill the (in my opinion) world’s greatest rapper because he beat him up. Another interesting question is this one: why was Orlando Anderson in Las vegas? It’s to say it was a coincidence….

 

[Devious]

Maybe Orlando wated to see the Tyson fight, like the thousands of other people there that night? And its been said about a million times, Pac was not leaving DR. He wanted to set up his own label under the DR banner, kind of like Shady/Aftermath. So Suge would still be getting paid. He didn't want the Lawz to sign with DR i believe cuz he wanted them to sign with him. Also i'm not sure Pac trusted Suge 100% not to fuck him or the Lawz over. Obviously i can't say this is fact, i wouldn't know, i wasnt there, but i think most people know he wasn't really leaving the Row

 

[Dante]

That second point certainly makes sense. But what if he thought he was gonna get the catologue as wel.

not possible. contracts are signed when an artist joins. all parties involved know the terms for the life of the contract.

Point is, he thought pac was his friend, and in someway Pac betrayed that with leaving. You say he was continuin on Deathrow. You can’t be 100% sure of that. He allready sacked that lawyer (David Kenner was his name?). He told the Outlawz to never sign at Deathrow. Why if he intented to stay?It's possible suge wasn't thinking clear because he had emotions. Not likely for someone like him, but still possible.

creating a subsidiary isn't betrayal. pac preserves his artistic freedoms while putting money into the umbrella's (death row's) pockets. em didn't betray dre, and 50 didn't betray em. why is it that every damn hip hop artist under the sun makes one album and then starts their own label? answer: money is to be made by everyone in doing so.

kenner was a label staff attorney. his representation of both pac and suge was a horrible and unethical conflict of interests. kenner upsetting pac was a good thing, as it eventually came to light what a crook he is. with regard to pac explicitly prohibiting the outlawz members form signing to death row, the true reasons may never be known, but a likely supposition would be that he was preserving their contractual liabilities to a label from being solidified until he was able to kick start his own label. there are several interviews where pac discusses the desire to start his own label and loe and behold, the first artists he usually mentions are the outlaw immortalz.

For me another big point is this: why did someone of the entourage whisper in Pac's ear Orlando Anderson stole a Deathrow medalion. In no way that makes sense, it leads to one conclusion.

in viewing the security footage it was obvious to me at least that the person who whispered to pac was merely telling him that anderson was there. pac hadn't yet seen him on the casino floor. pac well knew about the medallion incident prior to this evening. ever since death row started gaining acclaim there was a street bounty on snaching an artist's medallion. even hype men or roadies who had medallions were instructed to protect them with their lives, because if it was lost or stolen while in their custody something very bad would ensue. again, this relates directly to the gang mentality that was the spine of death row. someone punks you, you hit them ten times harder the next time you see them otherwise you stay the punk.

And yeah, i think Orlando Andersson was the one who killed Pac. But that ain’t saying nothing about who ordered it. I don’t believe all those complicated theories Saaphir allready

mentioned, but wouldn’t be suprised if there is more to it than just a simple retaliation.
hate to say it, but i think we lost the best rapper in history over something as simple and stupid as a thousand dollar medallion that was probably insured.

I must remark I ain’t familiar with the ways gangs handle their business, that might be part of it. For me it is hard to get Orlando wanted to kill the (in my opinion) world’s greatest rapper because he beat him up. Another interesting question is this one: why was Orlando Anderson in Las vegas? It’s to say it was a coincidence….

but don't you see? orlando had nothing but to gain by shooting or, even better, killing pac. orlando was a crip, and for him to kill death row's (a powerful and openly blood affilliate) capo he'd earn some major stripes within the organization. who cares if he liked his music or not, a successful hit on pac would be a huge display of power.

orlando and tons more gang members were in vegas for the same reason as pac - to see the fight. not sure how old you are and all that, but in america when tyson was still the champion his fights were a big deal. i know that i made every effort to watch every single one, and people would fly from all over the states to attend a fight. for anderson and death row, it was just a car ride through the desert to get there. no mystery here.

 

[Local Star]

Dante your insight and straight talking is spot on. Im no gang member but if a big shot football player with celebrity status stole it on me one night (jumped me with a big crew) I would be willing to do anything to get them back. Think of it this way Orlando Anderson hears 2pac everywhere he goes, sees him on every channel, sees him in the papers fuckin all kinds of fine ass girls. 2pac can take a bath in his money whilst Orlando Anderson is left shiftin shitty amounts of beak (cocaine for you none scouse speakers!) for hardly any dough then one night at a Tyson fight Pac and Death Row kick the shit out of ya. Thats why Pac got killed, a genuine 'beef'. It happens all the time, everyday everywhere it just happened to engulf the greatest Hip Hop artist ever.

 

[DutchPac2]

Dante, thank you for your answers. Whatever happened we'll never know. And I'm still not convinced Suge had nothing to do with it. Like I stated before: i aint familiar with gangs and their behaviour. So that could be why i don't see what's goin on there, and why Orlando would want to shoot Pac. What you say makes certainly sense, but after reading that article in Rolling Stone it will be damn hard to convince me Too many questions and too many coincedences.

About Tyson: i'm 22 but not into boxing. That sport isn't populair here in Holland. This is the country of football, speed-skating and cycling. I'm personally not interested in boxing too, so I never saw a fight to be honest. I remember the ear thing with if I remember correctly Hollyfield or something (or wat is Lewis??) But that was around 99 or something. So i'm not familiar with the impact of that fights.

When you talk about an onw label, you're assuming it would be a part of Deathrow. I ain't sure about that. I don't think Pac was happy there, and though he said he considered Suge a friend, to be honest i don't think he did. And offcourse Pac din't trust Suge. Didn't he say to Syke "I made a deal with the devil"?
That implicates something. And I remember Snoop said Suge killed pac, but Snoop had problems enough himself with Suge. So that's not necessarely the truth.

Like i said before, there's no way to compare the Shady situation with Pac's situation. Fifty didn't have to deal with a "capo". Suge was (and is?) very powerfull.

And whatever is said about that medaillion, it was just a strange case. You got to admit that. You are entiteld to believe the simple thing. As far as i see it, there could be more. I gotta admit what you say makes a lot of sense, but there are still strange things.

 

[Cheesyphily16]

How about the conspiracies regarding Biggie workin with Anderson and the rest of the crips? Whether or not it was true, couldn't it be assumed that Biggie was gunned down cause someone (maybe Suge) believed he ordered the hit?

 

[DutchPac2]

How about the conspiracies regarding Biggie workin with Anderson and the rest of the crips? Whether or not it was true, couldn't it be assumed that Biggie was gunned down cause someone (maybe Suge) believed he ordered the hit?

I'm almost sure (much more than in pac's case) Suge had something to do with Biggie's murder. There is very solid proof. But that shit about Biggie bein involved in pac's murder? I dont believe that.
I've never liked the person Biggie was (offcourse didn't know him, but what i read about him, he wasn't saying thingsstraight in the face) but as what I've heard, I don't think he was capable of murdering someone.

One thing that I've found crazy about the whole Bigiie-murder is this: there is pretty convincing evidence Suge was involved in Biggie's murder. But why? Retaliation? No, can't imagine that, not the type of person. in some way he must've thought he could make money out of it or something. Dante, can you explain this?

 

[EDouble]

i think the truths of the night pac got shot and leadin up to it all land somewhere in the gray in my opinion.

Maybe Orlando wated to see the Tyson fight, like the thousands of other people there that night?

the coincidence wouldnt be that orlando was @ the fight but how they ran into each other

Oh n i agree with the shit about pac not wantin to imeddiately leave death row but ive always wondered & was interested by the shit with how he fired kenner. and all that acouple days b4 the shooting

 

[Devious]

in the lobby? theres no coincidence there, people have to go thru the lobby to leave the building or go from the arena to the hotel/casino part of the building, so naturally it can be expected that they could run into each other there. doesn't seem that strange to me, it seems very plausible

 

[DeeezNuuuts83]

One thing that I've found crazy about the whole Bigiie-murder is this: there is pretty convincing evidence Suge was involved in Biggie's murder. But why? Retaliation? No, can't imagine that, not the type of person. in some way he must've thought he could make money out of it or something. Dante, can you explain this?

First of all, even though the two deaths are not directly connected, it is almost the accurate truth to say that if Pac was never shot, Biggie would still be alive as well.

Whoever was behind Biggie's murder, whether it was Suge or someone else (whether it was corrupt LAPD officers or the Crips who he allegedly owed money to), his death was mostly a result of territorial reasons. I really doubt Biggie would've gotten killed anywhere other than California. Knowing how Biggie was New York's main rapper at the time and Pac was Cali's but got killed, it's almost a natural feeling for hardcore Californians to want to even the score, no matter who was behind it. A lot of people--not just internet posters like ourselves but some journalists--feel that Biggie should've known better than to just parade over to the West Coast and act like everything is all good. A lot of people felt that he didn't let enough time pass before trying to comfortably hang out in Cali. Liken it to California gangs. If a black gang was beefing with a Mexican gang, and a black gang member got killed, would it be wise for the Mexicans to just go to their hood and chill, even if their intentions are good? No. Things have to settle first, ill feelings have to be calmed, people have to sit down and talk.

 

[Nick]

First of all, even though the two deaths are not directly connected, it is almost the accurate truth to say that if Pac was never shot, Biggie would still be alive as well.

Whoever was behind Biggie's murder, whether it was Suge or someone else (whether it was corrupt LAPD officers or the Crips who he allegedly owed money to), his death was mostly a result of territorial reasons. I really doubt Biggie would've gotten killed anywhere other than California. Knowing how Biggie was New York's main rapper at the time and Pac was Cali's but got killed, it's almost a natural feeling for hardcore Californians to want to even the score, no matter who was behind it. A lot of people--not just internet posters like ourselves but some journalists--feel that Biggie should've known better than to just parade over to the West Coast and act like everything is all good. A lot of people felt that he didn't let enough time pass before trying to comfortably hang out in Cali. Liken it to California gangs. If a black gang was beefing with a Mexican gang, and a black gang member got killed, would it be wise for the Mexicans to just go to their hood and chill, even if their intentions are good? No. Things have to settle first, ill feelings have to be calmed, people have to sit down and talk.

Good post, I totally agree :thumb:

 

[Morris]

you can't say that he died for a principle like it was a good thing

I never said Pac's death, or the manner in which he died, was a good thing. But Pac didn't punk Anderson because of his personality, he punked Anderson because Anderson had punked Travon. It's a principle/mentality that Pac constantly espoused in his tracks. "I'm down for you so ride with me. My enemies your enemies..."

I don't think Anderson shooting Pac that night was over anything but retaliation. There's a reason Anderson didn't talk to cops or press charges at the MGM: he wanted to get the hell out of there as quickly as possible to get his revenge.

As Dante has already noted, killing Pac was as much about hurting Death Row, Suge, the Mob Pirus etc than hurting Pac himself. Think about Pac's last verse in Made Niggaz, where to get back at a guy he kidnaps the daughter and kills the wife instead of actually touching him.

But it's not like Pac's big mouth or cocky attitude is what got him killed. It was the mentality that went into living that type of lifestyle. It's why Pac was pissed at Snoop over the NYC Radio show, and it's why Pac jumped Anderson in that lobby.

 

[DEA]

I think if you were there to work and not to fuck around you would get along with pac well.

:thumb: :thumb: