Islam vs South Park

[Rukas]

You guys heard about this?

Apparently after South Park showed images of Mohammed in Episode 200, RevolutionMuslim.com threatened that Trey Park, Matt Stone and Comedy Channel people would be killed if it happened again so Comedy Central censored Episode 201. People got so pissed off and now RevolutionMuslim.com has been hacked.

Wow.

 

[S O F I]

Well, not really. They didn't threaten explicitly. They just said that they could/should expect retaliation a la Theo Van Gogh.

But anyway, I was too lazy/angry/frustrated/futile? to post about this topic, but it did enrage me.

For one, I feel that the creators of South Park, in their quest for freedom of expression, intellect, and satire, should not bow down to any pressure from who they choose to make fun of. BUT in that case, everyone involved in the decision behind airing the show, should be down with that. I mean, I know that if I did something like that, I should reasonably expect to be killed in the near future by a fundamentalist. So, they know it too. I'm pissed off that the episode is getting censored and that Comedy Central and the like are pussying out by censoring it. As far as #2 goes, I forgot what I wanted to say.

 

[Prize Gotti]

Episode 200 was censored in the UK, which airs 3 days after it does in the US.

 

[Casey]

Yes, we've been talking about it in the Sarkozy thread in 'Words of Wisdom'.

 

[Flipmo]

They should still air it, I want to be entertained by the aftermath.

 

[vg4030]

Here's the clip...

 

[Prize Gotti]

my brother tells me they didnt air episode 201 here in the UK yesterday, instead Comedy Central aired Chris Rock - Bigger & Blacker followed by two episodes that had previously been air.

 

[Da_Funk]

LMAO. Southpark is still king shit.

 

[vg4030]

my brother tells me they didnt air episode 201 here in the UK yesterday, instead Comedy Central aired Chris Rock - Bigger & Blacker followed by two episodes that had previously been air.

Obviously Chris Rock is less offensive!

 

[Casey]

Simpsons gave a shout to South Park over the Muhammad issue

 

[Rukas]

Simpsons gave a shout to South Park over the Muhammad issue

That's awesome.

 

[Synful*Luv]

Episode 201 was censored here... it was pointless when they were done with the bleeps and black boxes.

I don't like it. It sets an awful precedence. That every other religious group or ethnic group or whatever can be teased but the Muslims and Muhammad are above parody? That annoys me. It's a gross violation to the first amendment. It's also offensive to the people who are being teased. Why can they insult Jesus and not Muhammad? It sets a standard that if people don't like what's being said about them.. they should just threaten the life of the person who said it. Pretty soon no one will be able to insult anyone, or question anyone.. I mean I know i'm being a bit dramatic here but that's the direction it goes in.

What they should've done was played the episode and brought in the group for questioning based on the threats that they posted on their site.

Lastly... who hacked their site? I didn't hear about that.

 

[Preach]

Are there people in the West still willing to die for their country? I know a lot of people, but none that would die for Norway. So when you talk about first amendment, I can't help but suggest that the reasons for censoring were more practical.

One person can say a bunch of bullshit, and another person can get annoyed and wanna kill this person. The logic for not saying bullshit is not that it's wrong or anything moral/etiquette-related. It's a more practical dilemma. "Is this joke so funny that the episode will get so many views that risking my life and the life of those working with/under me is worth it for this particular joke, regardless of what ethics should dictate?"

Laws, and particularly laws like the right to freedom of speech and the right to freedom of thoughts, are illusionary. They are there as guidelines for how most people would like things to work, but our very nature and instincts contradict many of these guidelines (young children, unconditioned by the rules of society and more in tune with their very nature, can be considered pretty gruesome and evil in their ways of systematically breaking down the fat kid or the ugly kid), so every individual can decide to either blindly expect everyone to follow the law, or to guard one self and ones loved ones in the event that the law fails them. In reality, freedom of speech and right to freedom are rules that are violated daily. To expect that they won't continue to be violated for all eternity is naive. Btw, I'm not calling you naive, I'm just saying in general to underscore the point I'm trying to make. You can't depend on a law that says you have the freedom to express yourself however you like when there are crazy people out there who don't care about any laws or amendments. Or you can, but it's risky, and will only serve an illusionary goal - your freedom of speech.

 

[Synful*Luv]

I really want to respond to your post but it's soo long and I have a short attention span...

The first amendment is constantly violated. I know this but I don't like it. There will always be crazy people out there, so what.. you propose we keep our mouths shut and our heads down so as to not offend these people? I do not like that idea, at all.

What i'm saying is... for two people who pride themselves on saying whatever they want about whomever they want... you think they would be more willing to support their rights to do so. The support of that law is only real as long as people believe in it, right? The same as most ideas.. if no one believe in them they cease to be real. The same with god, democracy, sins, whatever.

I wouldn't call myself naive.. I would call myself a bit of a dreamer perhaps.. but as long as the "idea" that freedom of speech is there we stand a chance much greater than if it isn't because there are people out there who will die for the right to say and print whatever they want.

But I don't want to get into a back and forth writing essays about this.

 

[Preach]

Haha yah I'll do a short response. I did not in any way mean to suggest you are naive. Quite the contrary if you must know, I find you an intelligent woman with spine. I'm also a dreamer and I only find it charming/sweet.

And also, I don't like the idea of bowing to terror and those who oppose the freedom of speech and right to freedom. I'm only suggesting that some times, for your own sake, it can be good to not always rely too much on them. But rather, be a bit more selfish and think about what serves you better, all while trying to not offend or hurt others in the process. Because like you said, a law or principle only exists so long as people believe in it, and there are a bunch of crazies out there.. :/

------
Edit: To apply it to the thread, I implied that I'm sure the South Park guys knew the risk they were taking, and if they did, I see no problem in what they did. Whether or not what they did is definable as good or bad, well, there's a whole other thread for that ^^

 

[_carmi]

It kills me because South Park has ridiculed and made fun of so many religions, sexual orientations, individuals, etc. Now, it's all racist and discriminatory because they made fun of the muslim religion? Fuck that. South Park has made countless controversial decisions in the past. They have a history. Anybody who finds the muslim episode offensive is an idiot. It's what they do. If you don't like it, don't watch the fucking show. That's it.

PS. Anybody has a link to that particular episode? I personally don't watch South Park cause it never appealed to me.

 

[Preach]

We're being very general though. We say that they have ridiculed a lot of things.

I'll be honest, South Park episodes are very complex and there is most likely a thought behind every line. I'm pretty sure a lot of it flies straight over my head. I'm also maybe a bit ignorant about religions in general as I have never had an inspiration to learn a lot more about them.

I think maybe it's worth noting how they have ridiculed other religions. They have joked around with Jesus and the Anti-Christ, but no biblical scriptures state that non religious people are not allowed to. The bible doesn't explicitly state that you should do harm unto those who oppose your belief. It preaches love for those around you. It is, however, and this is where I may get corrected because I may very well be wrong, clearly stated in Islamic scriptures that it is haraam to depict the prophet. This is a very direct guideline and it was directly breached. When speaking of their ridicule of other religions, it was of a less "personal" nature, or so it seemed to me. They didn't directly defy teachings that encourage Christians to take action, but they did cross an Islamic teaching that does encourage its followers to react. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I see the situation. In that sense, I totally understand the censorship. You can't just call slander slander. It is as intricate as the person giving it and the person receiving it.

Now one can speculate on people being brought up under the belief that if someone depicts the prophet physical disciplining is in order, and one may speculate on whether this is good or bad. The fact is that it is, and no thought concept or dream that anyone have can change that. The makers of South Park are also very well aware of this, and despite it they decided to do what they did. The true moral question here is whether one should use ones right to freedom of speech just because one has it, and ill-matic posted something about that in one of these SP vs. Islam threads that hit the nail on the head to me. Just because someone is fat and you have the right to say so doesn't necessarily mean that you do it.

 

[_carmi]

^and therefore you prevent people who are not from that said religion to view that episode? i could understand muslim individuals being upset over this, but one cannot prevent everyone from a certain object, in this case this South Park episode, because of themselves. i understand that this episode will never be shown in a muslim country. but in countries like USA or Canada where multiple religions occupy a same territory, i find it unfair that some individuals are denied freedom of speech/opinions because a certain group.

but that's just me and my dislike for censorship.

 

[Preach]

I think I understand where you are coming from.

They joked about Islam before though. It's not freedom of speech they are being robbed of. That's so general, and if that was the case, I would totally agree with you. It's just that one little detail - just don't draw Muhammad, that's all they ask.

In the Middle East, religion is above state. In the West, state is above religion (or in the case of the U.S. they hold hands). The idea that you should be able to do whatever you want in your country is conditioned by the way our Western society works. Their idea that we shouldn't depict Muhammad has to do with the fact that they believe they will be punished if they accept it because it is haraam. It's as if someone threaten your life. Whether it actually is in danger or not is irrelevant, you will act upon what you believe to be the truth.

Our desire to depict Muhammad can only come back to a desire to make a funny joke. There's literally billions of things you can joke about. Joking about Muhammad makes me think of when you tell a child that under no circumstance may they enter that room. Obviously they will. The makers of South Park are adults and such a desire to satisfy your own trivial curiosity is childish. Adult people in a Western society should have more discipline than to give into the desire to make a joke on somebody else's expense when the matter they are joking about is so grave.

In the end, there is no need to do it. Doing it only provokes. Not doing it doesn't bring about any form of change at all, but doing it brings about a negative change. And it's not just anything, it's the direct violation of a direct order in the Islamic scriptures (the way I understand it). There's not a million of those, but there's a few, and out of respect we can find other things to joke about, right?

And that's just me and my dislike for people turning a blind eye to the truth (which in turn is founded in the fact that when I do it, people criticize me for it, and i try to make a positive change about it if I am made aware of any truths I may be neglecting to acknowledge)

 

[Jurhum]

I think I understand where you are coming from.

They joked about Islam before though. It's not freedom of speech they are being robbed of. That's so general, and if that was the case, I would totally agree with you. It's just that one little detail - just don't draw Muhammad, that's all they ask.

In the Middle East, religion is above state. In the West, state is above religion (or in the case of the U.S. they hold hands). The idea that you should be able to do whatever you want in your country is conditioned by the way our Western society works. Their idea that we shouldn't depict Muhammad has to do with the fact that they believe they will be punished if they accept it because it is haraam. It's as if someone threaten your life. Whether it actually is in danger or not is irrelevant, you will act upon what you believe to be the truth.

Our desire to depict Muhammad can only come back to a desire to make a funny joke. There's literally billions of things you can joke about. Joking about Muhammad makes me think of when you tell a child that under no circumstance may they enter that room. Obviously they will. The makers of South Park are adults and such a desire to satisfy your own trivial curiosity is childish. Adult people in a Western society should have more discipline than to give into the desire to make a joke on somebody else's expense when the matter they are joking about is so grave.

In the end, there is no need to do it. Doing it only provokes. Not doing it doesn't bring about any form of change at all, but doing it brings about a negative change. And it's not just anything, it's the direct violation of a direct order in the Islamic scriptures (the way I understand it). There's not a million of those, but there's a few, and out of respect we can find other things to joke about, right?

And that's just me and my dislike for people turning a blind eye to the truth (which in turn is founded in the fact that when I do it, people criticize me for it, and i try to make a positive change about it if I am made aware of any truths I may be neglecting to acknowledge)

It seems no one will understand your point. The hatred as I said has blinded their sight.