How do you want to die?

[masta247]

But there is no nothing, there's no absolute "vacuum" as you put it. Not that we know of, anyway.

So that sort of shuts your idea down. SInce there'd be no "nothing" that can extend the universe infinitely.

Who knows that? 'Vacuum' might be nothing somewhere far away. I said that here it might contain something but somewhere else it might be nothing. Just an empty space. Do you think that an empty space is something by itself and that somewhere it doesn't even exist?
The idea of something limiting the universe is crazy.
The universe is unlimited by time or space, I know there are various debates but.. just no. People claiming that our universe is limited are usually scientists presenting weird theories trying to make their names recognized.

Sure we can't say it's a fact untill we find a proof that there is a limit of our universe that limits it in every given point of its 'border'. Untill that these are only theories but come on. If there was a border itself there would have to be something outside. Something like (U') which would make our universe an object inside of something bigger.
And I don't want to hear a theory of a black hole transcribing matter to a different dimension.

Also, I know that the big bang theory sort of claims that the universe is 'limited' (not literally though because it expands and there is not literal limit) but in the start the big bang theory was supported only by a few scientists that decided to use it as a fact because of lack of better ideas.
There are a few proofs that were made to back up this theory - the most popular one is the 'radiation' that is said to be a an outcome of the big bang but on the other hand it might have a different source. It's just a wild guess that it's from the big bang. Since nobody can prove yet how nothing could create matter I believe that we don't really know how the universe started and all known theories are probably wrong. I hope that there are many physical laws and occurances that are yet to be discovered and I hope that one of them will get us closer to some kind of answer that is more probable. Untill we are so small, travel so slow and live so short the chance that any of us will really know the truth is close to null.

 

[Duke]

People claiming that our universe is limited are usually scientists presenting weird theories trying to make their names recognized.

People like Stephen Hawking, hm?


The concensus is that the universe is finite. Not bordered off by walls or whatnot, but finite nonetheless. Sort of like a loop.

Also, I know that the big bang theory sort of claims that the universe is 'limited' (not literally though because it expands and there is not literal limit) but in the start the big bang theory was supported only by a few scientists that decided to use it as a fact because of lack of better ideas.
There are a few proofs that were made to back up this theory - the most popular one is the 'radiation' that is said to be a an outcome of the big bang but on the other hand it might have a different source. It's just a wild guess that it's from the big bang. Since nobody can prove yet how nothing could create matter I believe that we don't really know how the universe started and all known theories are probably wrong. I hope that there are many physical laws and occurances that are yet to be discovered and I hope that one of them will get us closer to some kind of answer that is more probable. Untill we are so small, travel so slow and live so short the chance that any of us will really know the truth is close to null.

You really need to read some more books, cos you're mixing up all kinds of definitions and theories.

The radiation you mention are gamma rays, which come from outside our own galaxy and is, everywhere, at a constant temperature.

Also, seeing as how the universe expands, people who are really good at math can calculate it "back" to near it's origins. Which suggests a finite universe.


If you're so convinced, I'd like to read some validated studies and articles that support what you're saying, instead of your own hard-to-understand layman rantings.


Also, quantum mechanics is so far doing a bang up job explaining how matter came from "nothing", since "nothing" doesn't exist, and QM goes a long way in making this understood.

 

[masta247]

People like Stephen Hawking, hm?

I said "most". Stephen Hawking is a great scientist but you should know that he took back a lot of statements he said about the big bang and black hole itself. He used to be the most popular guy believing in the big bang and you just had to start by using the biggest name.

The concensus is that the universe is finite. Not bordered off by walls or whatnot, but finite nonetheless. Sort of like a loop.

Who proved that? Is it a tautology?
It's an old old unproven theory by big bang fanatics that the universe is finite but boundless. But wait, they also claim that it's expanding.. where's the logic?

You really need to read some more books, cos you're mixing up all kinds of definitions and theories.

I won't go on a rant saying how many years it took me to read what. I think I know quite a lot about what I'm saying. I also spent some time with major Polish and Japanese scientists fascinated with the universe.

The radiation you mention are gamma rays, which come from outside our own galaxy and is, everywhere, at a constant temperature. stant temperature.

Yes, I remember some speculations that they are what backs up the big bang theory.

Also, seeing as how the universe expands, people who are really good at math can calculate it "back" to near it's origins. Which suggests a finite universe.

I'm not sure what you mean here by calculating it back to near its origins. Can you expand your thought?

If you're so convinced, I'd like to read some validated studies and articles that support what you're saying, instead of your own hard-to-understand layman rantings.

I'm not 100% convinced - there are no validated studies or articles on any theory about the universe being finite or not or how it started and on this matter there's nothing more than "layman rantings" - the only difference is that some people are better than others in theory of science.
I think we won't get a confirmation on this matter in the nearest future. I just point out what is obvious to me because it makes sense to me.

I thought that you are aware that many scientists are stuck in a debate whether our universe is finite or not. Nobody found a proof that would contradict another sides theory.
Probably the first guy who claimed it to be infinite was Zhang Heng:
“The Universe is Unlimited in Both Space and Time” | Pureinsight
It was quite a long time ago but since then a lot of great scientists shared his point of view or rather coming with their own which were similar.

Peep this discussion for example:
Is the universe infinite? - Science Forums
There are a few smart guys arguing and actually many of them have a different vision of our universe and that's the point. Some people thinking "infinite" mean that it concludes that there's an unlimited amount of matter in it too. Which might lead to some strange conclusions like that there'd be unlimited amount of me, you, earth etc. It's about the point of view. To me it's obviously close to impossible.

Also, quantum mechanics is so far doing a bang up job explaining how matter came from "nothing", since "nothing" doesn't exist, and QM goes a long way in making this understood.

That's what I was trying to say at one point.
That's why there can't be something that is less than 'empty' vacuum outside of our universe. And if you believe that our universe is limited then there has to be something outside of it and it can't be just nothing. IF something is limited by something else then it means that there has to be at least 1 element that is outside of it. It is a tautology.

 

[S. Fourteen]

Okay, its about time yall made a thread in WOW.

Please don't ruin death with quantum physics and string theory.

 

[Duke]

There's a difference between people exchanging thoughts and actual scientific theory backed up by math and perceptions.

Hawking's new research in the boundless finite universe sort of disproves his old black hole research, but as he says himself, the most important thing out of his black hole research was the notion that at some point the gravitational fields became so strong, quantum effects cannot be ignored anymore when working on a macro scale (general relativity and whatnot). Another step in the direction of the unified theory.


And his newer research suggests that the universe is sort of like a globe, but with more dimensions. Like Earth (a globe). It's boundless while we're on the surface, but it's not infinite. This is not an "old" theory, and while it's unproven, so far so are all theories about the start and end of the universe.

But wait, they also claim that it's expanding.. where's the logic?

People write about it. In books. Like Stephen Hawking.

The universe would expand equally fast in all directions in his new model (Hawking-Hartle), which would be also consistent with the cosmic microwave radiation percieved. This new model also gets quite complicated about space-time, and I am nowhere near capable to explain it in detail. But if you want to know what the theory is about, do teh google.

 

[Duke]

Also, it's not like I am "picking and choosing" a theory that I like, or one that suits my own wishes about the nature of the universe. I'm not a physicist or astronomer, I'ma let those guys figure it out. I'm just telling you what THEY think, and I think it's odd you put "faith" in one theory or group of theories (infinite universe) because...well, why? Do you like it? Does it suit your idea of what the universe should be like?

How can you be so convinced of something the creme de la creme of science won't be able to figure out for a long time?

 

[Flipmo]

Hey mother fuckers, this thread is about death, not about Stephen Hawking watching me masturbate in the dark while thinking about new theories.

 

[Duke]

No one's contributing anymore to the original idea, so stfu and let us have our nerd party.

 

[Shadows]

I want to die by someone venging the deaths of Jokerman, Masta and Duke for filling this thread with black hole bull shit.

 

[Jokerman]

I'm not sure what you mean here by calculating it back to near its origins. Can you expand your thought?

We can trace the evolution of our universe back to when it was only a second old. You really need to read up on this stuff. Try The First Three Minutes by Steven Weinberg. It's over 15 years old, but still totally valid. He's the physicist who unified electromagnetism and nuclear weak forces into one theory.

It's an old old unproven theory by big bang fanatics that the universe is finite but boundless. But wait, they also claim that it's expanding.. where's the logic?

Cosmology, the study of the universe, is a science. It’s not philosophy. We can’t grasp the nature of our cosmic environment by thought alone, which is what you seem to be doing here with what seems logical or not to you. It takes advanced mathematics, deep-space telescopes and spacecraft, probing deeper into space and far back in time, and seeking bizarre objects such as, yes, black holes, that have led to better understanding of the universe.

Yes, there are some assertions about our universe that are very tentative and speculative, but there are many that are supported by firm evidence, and command wide assent among cosmologists such as the Big Bang theory.

You are thinking about the univese as if it's similar to everyday objects that you're familiar with, and saying, how can it be limited and yet nothing be outside it? But it's not like a basketball the size of the universe. It's everything. There's no outside of everything. There's no shape to this everything in Euclidean geometrical terms. All your commonsense thoughts about it are going to be wrong. Gravity bends space. How can nothing be bent? Study Quantum mechanics. Study dark matter. Then come back and tell us what you think. That's your homework. See you back in this thread in 30 years

 

[masta247]

Also, it's not like I am "picking and choosing" a theory that I like, or one that suits my own wishes about the nature of the universe. I'm not a physicist or astronomer, I'ma let those guys figure it out. I'm just telling you what THEY think, and I think it's odd you put "faith" in one theory or group of theories (infinite universe) because...well, why? Do you like it? Does it suit your idea of what the universe should be like?

How can you be so convinced of something the creme de la creme of science won't be able to figure out for a long time?

Sorry for making it look like I'm trying to convince anyone that my 'theory' is the right one.
What I mean is that one theory makes much more sense to me after all the info I have gathered in my head. That's also what some more knowledgable people told me and it makes perfect sense. It's just more logic to me, that's how I picture the universe works and it fits what I believe is more possible. It doesn't deny any tautology and is more intuitive to me.

Major scientists still are far away from knowing the truth for sure. That's why we have freedom to our opinions and nobody is wrong yet.

So, you basically believe that if we constantly move in a specific direction for n amount of time at some point we will reach the same point? Same like traveling around earth, except that's in 3d?

You are thinking about the univese as if it's similar to everyday objects that you're familiar with, and saying, how can it be limited and yet nothing be outside it? But it's not like a basketball the size of the universe. It's everything. There's no outside of everything. There's no shape to this everything in Euclidean geometrical terms. All your commonsense thoughts about it are going to be wrong. Gravity bends space. How could nothing bend? Study Quantum mechanics. Study dark matter. Then come back and tell us what you think. That's your homework. See you in 30 years

No, I'm not thinking about the universe as an object. I think that the universe is everything and that's why nothing can be outside of it.
How can everything be limited by something then?
Sure, I won't solve the problem but I can analyse the information that I gathered and say how I see it. I don't major in any kind of space studies and I don't plan to but it intrigues me.

 

[S. Fourteen]

so stfu and let us have our nerd party.

I'm just upset 'cause I wasn't invited.

 

[masta247]

Next week I'm going to participate in pretty important lectures on black holes. One of our decent specialists is going to present his doctoral thesis. I think it's going to be something good.

 

[Jokerman]

Next week I'm going to participate in pretty important lectures on black holes. One of our decent specialists is going to present his doctoral thesis. I think it's going to be something good.

And you're going to tell him you don't believe in theoretical abstract mumbo-jumbo like black holes?

 

[SicC]

This was unexpected, and made my day. Thank you, you big ol' ball of luff. Sign into MSN more often.

I don't have any particular preferences, just something that doesn't chronically hurt before it finishes me off. Like burning to death would suck.

I dont even have msn loaded on my pc anymore.

pz

 

[masta247]

And you're going to tell him you don't believe in theoretical abstract mumbo-jumbo like black holes?

I'm going to give him a chance
No, but I do believe in black holes. I just don't believe that they are everything-swallowing things that erase things for ever.

 

[Duke]

I'm going to give him a chance
No, but I do believe in black holes. I just don't believe that they are everything-swallowing things that erase things for ever.

Well, since even light can't escape it's gravitational field...they are pretty much everything swallowing things.

There's not much "belief" involved. We know they're there. We've "seen" them.

 

[masta247]

Well, since even light can't escape it's gravitational field...they are pretty much everything swallowing things.

There's not much "belief" involved. We know they're there. We've "seen" them.

yeah but even Stephen Hawking mentioned that things don't just disappear there. They can still exist and some might probably even get out.

 

[Jokerman]

Black holes have no hair.

 

[Duke]

I never said things disappear. It's just that we can't witness it because of the immense gravity.

Also, things won't just "be stuck in there". Should you be unfortunate enough to get drawn into a black hole, you'll be ripped to shreds, as would pretty much anything consisting of something more complicated than a wave of light. It's matter just gets crazily compressed and a part of the black hole itself.

This is all pretty much proven fact. There's no uncertainty involved any more.